74mm BCD inner ring on SilVio 2.0

iow

Active Member
74mm BCD inner ring on SilVio 2.0. shimano ultegra triple 6603.
see below for details.
please note this is still experimental - i will update thread when i actually ride it!
possible snags to overcome:
- clearances are very tight - possibly some minor rubbing when under power?
- crankset offset to the right by approx. 3.5 mm (the thickness of the spacer) may need to tweak the front changer to enable shifting to the outer ring (not currently installed).

the clearance issues could be addressed with some very minor relieving of the chainstay clamps or a wider (73mm) MTB crankset could be fitted and suitable spacers made up to fit the road (68mm) BB.

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Doug Burton

Zen MBB Master
Very interesting work...

What's your chainline looking like with the crankset offset by 3.5mm?

You can check this with a yardstick held parallel to the chainring and drawn back to the cassette.

If you're close to the middle of the cassette, you're probably fine.

I think the ring clamp could probably be relieved a little bit in that area.

Nice going. Thanks for the detailed illustrations.
 

iow

Active Member
doug, chainline is approx

doug, chainline is approx 51mm (same as my bacchetta giro with the same crankset and a MTB bb with one bb spacer on the drive side).
chain is parallel in gear 6 on a shimano 10 speed cassette on the silvio.

sheldon suggests that chainline on a road triple is 45mm - not sure where the additional 2.5mm has come from as the drive side crank spacer looks to be only about 3.5mm.

looks like its going to be ok, although you would probably want to stay out of the big/big combo...
 

Doug Burton

Zen MBB Master
Not bad...

Looks like that will work fine.

Besides, if you ride in the big/big combo, Sheldon's ghost will swat you...
shades_smile.gif


Not unusual to see a 50mm chainline on MTB's... So this might work very well.

Good Onya...

Doug
 

Charles.Plager

Recumbent Quant
First of all, nicely done! 

First of all, nicely done! This really opens up possibilities as you can get a 24T 74BCD granny gear.
looks like its going to be ok, although you would probably want to stay out of the big/big combo...

Are you just concerned in general about big-big, or is there something in particular about your setup that has you worried?

If it's the former, just make (very) sure your chain is long enough for big-big. It's not great, either in terms of loss of efficiency or wear on the chain, but it's not horrible for short term usage either.

If it's something specific to your setup, what is it?

Again, nicely done!

Charles
 

iow

Active Member
cplager, the big/big combo on

cplager, the big/big combo on a similar setup to mine would be even more tortuous for the chain than normal, due to the increased chainline caused by the additional spacer on the driveside.
good advice about chain checking chain length.
 

iow

Active Member
after 500 miles it's all

after 500 miles it's all functioning flawlessly.
i've settled on a rotor Q 27t granny ring and have recently changed from dura ace bar end shifters to 105 brifters - works well with both set-ups including a 24T granny ring.

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i added a 1.0mm spacer to the non drive side between the bb cup and the bb shell - this gives another 0.5mm clearance each side.
there was no contact without the spacer, but i felt that clearances were a bit close for comfort.

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one benefit of the Q ring is that no modification or grinding is required.

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excuse the state of the bike - weather in UK is rather wet and stormy at the moment.
 

Charles.Plager

Recumbent Quant
Fabulous!  Thanks for the

Fabulous! Thanks for the updates and the pictures.

As far as the dirty bike, well, that's what happen when you ride them in the real world. :D

And again: For me, having a low granny is what I need on a bike. I think this opens up the Silvio 2 as a viable option for a lot of people.
 

super slim

Zen MBB Master
I also would be very interested in how it worked.

Which rear sprockets lined up with the inner and middle front chain rings.

I have a Silvio V 1.0 with a square drive, inner bearings BB and 24/39/53 tooth triple which lines up with rear 3, 5, 7 sprocket of 10 sprockets.

I travel on the flat at 20 to 25 kph which is the middle chainring and 5th rear, so I have a straight chain line, at 80 to 104 cadence.

Super Slim
 

Bruce B

Well-Known Member
Spacer With My Triple

IOW

As a result of personal experience, I now keep a spacer with the spare tube and pump.

Bruce B.
 

snilard

Guru of hot glue gun
I think that by moving spacer

I think that by moving spacer to drivetrain side of crankset you moved pedals and foots from bikes axis. So your right foot is little bit more far from axis than your left foot. And by moving clamps to left you misalligned whole front of the bike.
Am I true? Can you feel it when riding?
 

iow

Active Member
super slim - chain runs

super slim - chain runs parallel to the middle ring in sixth largest sprocket on a shimano 10 speed cassette. in the granny ring sprocket 4 is closest to parallel and in the large ring sprocket 8.

timt - " triple crank- you can spend all day in the middle ring with a close spaced cassette and go into the big ring or granny when you need higher or lower gears "
this is the main reason i chose to run the triple (27/39/50 x 12-27). based on 3000m on a rwd stick bike where i found that i needed far more closely spaced ratios than on my DF bikes (all of which run a single chainring and 11-32 casette). for some reason my legs (power) were not happy unless i kept closely to a 90ish cadence. ironically, this does not seem to be the case with the S2.0 (slightly lower bb? stiffer drive line? upper body involvement?) so a 34/50 x 11-34 combo may be a simpler alternative, assuming a 27 inch gear is low enough.

bruce b - sorry, not sure what you mean?

snilard - what you say is correct. taking into account the additional 1.0mm spacer on the non-drive side bb cup, the offset (to the right) from standard is approximately 7.0mm on the drive side and 6.0mm on the non-drive side. i have lost half of this with cleat adjustment and am too insensitive to detect the remaining 3.0mm difference. (bear in mind that even with the standard set-up the cranks are not equidistance from the bb centre line)
i was slightly concerned about introducing static stresses by misaligning the front triangle (although it seems to be condoned - at least for the V2.0 - by john in this post: http://cruzbike.com/vendetta-unboxing-and-build#comment-16944). in practice there is enough adjustability in all the clamps and sliding fixings of the front end to allow unstressed misalignment in most planes (ensure the bb clamps are the first thing to be tightened). - there is certainly no noticeable stress introduced when tightening front triangle components or any release of stress when loosening them.
i have not noticed any ill effects handling wise - a couple of mm misalignment is probably within tolerance for some frames, often compounded by inaccurately dished machine built wheels, but even theses bikes seem to ride fine and go unnoticed.


 

super slim

Zen MBB Master
dear Iow,
Those alignments are OK, and I thank you for the cleat positions adjustment on my bike shoes as I had forgotten about them.

Now all I need is a triple crank with external bearings, 74/130 BCD and 155 mm long cranks.

There are Ultegra with 165 mm, but when I went from 172.5mm on the Silvio to 153 mm on the Quest 1.0, by severe right knee pain after 3 hours of riding disappeared, and only started after 6 hours. I can walk in a straight line, but can not run.

I assumed it was because the knee movement reduced, OR I spun at 90 instead of 80 cadence.

Trisled in AU sell a Rhythm expert double 155 mm crank for $350, but not a triple.

Super Slim
 

Charles.Plager

Recumbent Quant
 SS,
 Have you considered


SS,

Have you considered getting cranks shortened? Might give you a few more possibilities.

Cheers, Charles
 

timt

Member
crank options

I've been researching this topic as I spec out the silvio I hope to build in a couple of months.

Since there are a few related threads, I thought I'd summarize and tie them together. I've just read about it, so please correct my errors.

The philosophies for getting your low gears:
1- triple crank- you can spend all day in the middle ring with a close spaced cassette and go into the big ring or granny when you need higher or lower gears. Or you can go with a wide cassette and have the low-low combination for bigger climbs.
2- Wide double- wide span on the cassette to get the range of a triple with less hardware.
3- Harden up, who needs gears below 42-23?

Advantage of #1 is the narrower spacing on the cassette allows you better match load and cadence. I'm in this camp.
Advantage of #2 is reduced weight, cost, complexity,

Hardware options in order of smallest ring size.
1- Triple with 74mm bolt circle on the granny (Ultegra 6603, 105 5703, Tiagra 4603). These require the modifications in iow's thread you are reading now. Trim the chain suck tabs and get creative with spacers and shims.
http://www.cruzbike.com/74mm-bcd-inner-ring-silvio-2.0.
Positives- allows you to get a 24 tooth granny gear.
Negatives- chainline is a few mm further out, tight clearance, maybe derailleur capacity issues.

2- Triple with 92mm bolt circle on the granny (Ultegra 6703 dura ace 7803). This is addressed in fthills' vendetta build thread- includes modifiying a 92bcd ultegra granny ring. It looks like you trim the tabs and slide the crank on.
http://cruzbike.com/vendetta-unboxing-and-build#comment-17023
Positives- less modifications, Chainline isn't offset
Negatives- the only 92bcd granny available is 30 tooth.

3- Double- (both brands) You can get a double anywhere from 50/34 to 55/42 depending on brand.
Ivan went with Sram Force 53/39, and 11-32 cassette, with the wifli package (longer rear derailleur to handle the wide cassette).
post 16 in http://cruzbike.com/silvio-2.0-journey-build-and-ride-video
Eric Winn went 53/39 and 11-36 on the vendetta
http://cruzbike.com/mixing-sram-road-and-mtb-components#comment-22847
Postives- complexity, weight, cost (maybe). No modifications needed.
Negatives- front derailleur capacity limits the difference in size between big and small rings. The smaller your small ring, the smaller the big ring.

I have a 50/39/30 with an 11-25 cassette on my Rans V3. For the Silvio (when I get there) I like the 6703 92 bcd triple with a 12-27 cassette. It's relatively flat here, and I can put a bigger cassette on for trips to hilly areas. I like close spacing on my cassette so I don't have to hunt for the ideal gear, but that's a different topic.

A 30 chainring with an 11-25 sprocket would deliver the same 32.2 gear inches at the bottom end as Ivan's 39 ring and 32 cassette
A 30 chainring with a 12-27 or 11-28 would roughly match Eric's 28.6 gear inches.
A 30 chainring with an 11-32 cassette would match the 25 gear inches of 34 chainring with a 36 tooth cassette.

gear inches calculated using www.sheldonbrown.com/gears/ assuming 700c x 25mm

Tim

 

Bruce B

Well-Known Member
Spacer With My Spare And Pump

iow,

When replacing a punctured tube while on a ride, I lost the spacer as it fell off the axle when the wheel was removed from the bike.

Bruce B
 

super slim

Zen MBB Master
Charles,
         I have


Charles,
I have shortened Truvitiv ISO Flow MTB cranks, using square drive inner bearing BBs, on my Quest V1.0 and Softrider V1.0, done by bike smith design in USA, as these are some of the few SOLID cranks available, so there is solid aluminum 155 mm from the crank, and not a hollow crank.

I asked about my Ultegra 6703 cranks and the answer was a 30% chance of being solid at 155 mm, and he wanted to know my height and weight, which was 6"1" 115 Kg. His reply was that I could push too hard for a short time, and rip the peddle out of the crank.


http://www.bikesmithdesign.com/Short_Cranks/shorten.html

I just went back to the website, and reread the 2 piece cranks shortening section, and FSA Gossamer Megaexo has been added, and these are available from Chain reactions for $157, so this is a good option.
.
SS
 

Charles.Plager

Recumbent Quant
 For what it's worth, I have

For what it's worth, I have an FSU Gossimer triple crank on my Mantis and I like it. (I have mine setup as a 50/39/24).
 

snilard

Guru of hot glue gun
It is possible to buy 155 mm

It is possible to buy 155 mm triple cranks from Rotor:
http://www.rotorbike.com/products/mtb/versions/3d_63
 
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