Breathing technique on Silvio

[oldcyclist1950]

I just got me new Silvio at Christmas. Of course in Colorado we have to pick and choose the good days in winter to ride. I was slow to get my balance but with practice, just like Robert advised, it came so now I am out and fairly confident on the flat. But herre is my question: Before riding the Silvio I rode a DF and I could climb fairly easily. Now when climbing just the hills in the neighborhood I am sucking for air when I summit. I am wondering if the position on the Silvio is so different from the DF that I am feeling completely out of shape and have to start over with conditioning; is the reclined position closing my lungs instead of opening up or is it just the adjustment period of 3 to 4 months that everyone talks about? I would love advice on this one....thanks! Sandy

 

[1happyreader]

confident enough to stand up ?

Walter,,,

Are you confident enough in your balance to press your shoulders back , raise your butt about a ½ inch, and dance on your pedals for power ??

cuz If I am never happy if I end up spinning to much instead of climbing, got to find that sweet spot of gearing that allows power with a sustainable cadence.

Which model Silvio do you own ??

later,,,, bye

 

[ratz]

Great to hear that the balance is coming along

Great to hear that the balance is coming along

I'm going to assume that along with sucking wind you probably have a really strong burn in the legs? If so then yes you don't have your bent legs yet; and you aren't able to get enough oxygen to the correct places, compounded by other muscles having to pickup the slack but in a suboptimal manner and burning more oxygen. 200-400 miles and the muscles come along nicely.

If the legs aren't burning, then you are breathing too shallow which I did when I first adapted to the recumbent position. If you focus on belly breathing and looking at the horizon you'll be able to breath deeper. Make sure your not staring at your feet; that'll close your throat and make it harder. Think back to the head/neck position you use when doing sitting up on DF to climb in the chair position. You should be to be in that positon 100% of the time on a Silvio, just avoid tucking your chin into your chest.

Like the balance this will sort it self out; but that happens the more you climb; so you will have to out and suffer (in the good way) for awhile as you adapt. If it's breathing technique, it comes quicker than the balance.

If you were an out of the saddle climber and bike side-to-side rocker it will take a little longer, if you were a sitting climber it'll come more naturally.

 

[oldcyclist1950]

Yep ratz, sitting climber

Yep ratz, sitting climber with an occasional out of saddle spin to just change position. So hopefully the breathing will settle itself with miles. And as I mentioned, I am trying to find little windows of time to ride between snow and left over ice on the roads. But I do look for to the season this year when I can get more competent. Each time out my balance is better....but funny, i used to love to descend on a DF but the Silvio is scary to descend on so far.

And yep, I have the new model, must be the Silvio 2.0. Nice bike once I know how to ride it! Sandy

 

[oldcyclist1950]

Nope, it is the new S30, my

Nope, it is the new S30, my bad! Sandy

 

[ratz]

Descending - when learning;

Descending - when learning; bring the knees together and clasp the frame; that will stabilize the front end and lock your feet while you adapt. (All credit to my daughter for that one). That makes it easier to learn. Eventually that will become something you save for the 40+ mph coasting, but it's a big help at first.

Another good thing is to go to the proverbial parking lot; get a coast going and try to steer with just input from your feet; while holding your arms still. That will quickly affirm for your brain that it's really hard to induce steering with just the feet. Once you brain accepts that you will automatically feel more stable on descents because you won't fake your self into thinking your feet are destabilizing you.

 

[hamishbarker]

stability analysis

The linearized stability equations which I ran seemed to indicate best stability when the front end swinging inertia (i.e. th boom, chainstays, crankset and whatever is fixed to them (i.e. to some extent shoes, feet and lower legs) is minimised. Trying to make feet really stiff on the pedals might then effectively add weight to that front end assembly. I need to go ride to check whether this is the case, but the opposite (i.e. less front end weight by way of taking feet off the pedals and "fred flintstoning") was one of Kim T's tips for learning to ride, so that seems to match results of the stability analysis.

The first image below is the stability plot for vendetta 1.5 with actual front end component weights.

The second image is with the front end component weights halved.

The third is with the front end weight doubled.

The important line is the green one. Where it crosses zero (8.5m/s on original, 7.5m/s on half weight, 10m/s on double weight)
indicates the speed at which the equations are indicating small oscilations start to decay (self-stability) rather than grow (instability). So as far as the linearized stability equations are concerned, more weight of the front end (locking feet together to the pedals) seems to be bad for stability.

But maybe when locking feet together, if the main frame is also clamped between the thighs, there can be a damping effect not taken into account in the stability equations as currently formulated - since I don't doubt Ratz and his daughter's actual experiences when riding.

 

[ratz]

relax trick

I should have mentioned that; putting the knees together pretty much forces you to relax from the knees down; and unloads the weight from the pedals. It dampens the steering by preventing left/right swaying; and you get ride of rotating feet and flopping heels.

It's sort of a cheat way to get a beginner to relax going down hill. which would match with the math. I'll be curious if others find similar.

 

[hamishbarker]

That makes sense.Would be

That makes sense.

Would be interesting to see if one could actually feel any changes to stability by starting with a V with a very light crankset, then gradually adding ballast (say wrapping a bit of lead foil around the end of the boom).

I'll also have a look at the effect on the maths of changing wheel mass and wheel rotating inertia. If it is a bigger effect than crankset weight it could have some influence on decisions as to where it's better to spend money (wheels or crankset/BB).

-done:

Decreasing wheel mass and wheel inertias results in a higher minimum speed for decaying oscillations (i.e. less stability).
Increasing wheel mass and wheel inertias results in lower minimum speed for decaying oscillations (i.e. more stability).

Interesting! (could be checked by increasing wheel mass with puncture slime stuff inside tubes I guess).

 

[Robert Holler]

As with all things that are

As with all things that are worth the effort:

Practice, practice, practice. Once you acclimate and have a full riding season under your belt you will be faster, stronger, and more stable than you can envision at this point. Stick with it and you will reap huge benefits.

My first downhill on a Cruzbike I thought would be impossible to go over 15 mph. By the end of the season I was descending at my max pucker speed in more comfort and stability than on any recumbent (or ANY bike) I have ridden since 2002.

Robert

 

[billyk]

stability analysis

Hamish - I'm curious about your stability calculations (I'm a physicist - fluid dynamics, but classical-physics trained).

Is this based on maximizing the self-stabilizing properties of bicycle wheels with trail? In your calculations can you also vary the trail?

I always thought that the sense that Cruzbike front ends could develop oscillations at speed was because the mass of the rider is partly wrapped around the steering axis, in contrast to an upright where the rider is clearly behind the axis.

That means that the rider's mass does not contribute as much to the stabilizing effect of positive trail: with small lean on a Cruzbike there is less natural tendency for the wheel to straighten. Does that make sense?

Another way to think about this is in terms of "wheel flop". (the tendency for the wheel to fall towards the handlebar rotation because with positive trail a turned wheel lowers the CoG of the whole system). Does the forward-shifted mass of a Cruzbike+rider (compared to an upright) make wheel flop stronger?

Any insight into these subtle questions appreciated!

Billy K

 

[ratz]

Billy here's the original

Billy here's the original stability discussion;

http://cruzbike.com/incredibly-stable-recumbents

It might be good to add to that thread and keep it going. Interesting topic but it certainly can overwhelm an non technical thread pretty quickly. I'm not a fluids guy, more theoretic math, and I have to grab coffee and triple read those posts.