Climbing and Sprinting technical talk

Balor

Zen MBB Master
What you think is only what you think: That's what I think.
Results speak for themselves.

Feeling agnostic today, aren't we?
MY results are pretty depressing:

DF:

https://www.strava.com/activities/147943553

Recumbent:

https://www.strava.com/activities/275932010

I was not in my 'full form' yet, right, it was colder too, but still - the difference is depressing, I've lost a lot of speed, and it simply cannot be accounted by extra weight alone.

Now, if I had something akin to Cruzbike or Zockra.... I'm still hopeful, because I simply cannot cycle on a road bike for any significant length of time without my back killing me, and cannot cycle a more upright carbon niner for more then 400 km at a time without my ... backside killing me.
So, I am trying to figure out could have went wrong, and how to fix it.
I am NOT a keyboard racer, thankyouverymuch.

P.S.
I'm really tired of 'It is a MYSTERY!' and 'It is all up to a rider!' comments on BROL, and now 'et tu, Brute?'
After all, this is the whole point of the thread, to provide comprehensive THEORY why Cruzbikes are so damn fast uphill, right? Otherwise, one can always write off the results as 'Maria Parker is superhuman' and be done about it.
 
But the 'elephant in the room' - namely, elimination of power delivery losses by removing 'pushing against backseat' out of the equation the the greatest factor by far, I can bet anything.

This right here +1.

When I'm pedaling very hard..

I've noticed that when I apply force with my foot and not my upper body, my posterior is driven back and squished into the seat with a lot of power loss.

When I apply force with my foot and counter it with my upper body, essentially 'prying open' between my foot and my upper body, I am no longer wasting energy squishing my bum against the seat. The efficiency of power transfer seems noticeably better.

I don't even have to move the boom side to side either. I just have to counter the pedal force and turn things from a pushing kinetic to a 'prying open' kinetic.
 

Balor

Zen MBB Master
My point exactly! And the difference is ever greater for those who has an 'oversized', ahem, bum - that is surely my case, damn you genetics. (Not that I, myself, is blameless for eating too much, but most of my fat is on my butt, not an 'aero belly').

After all, tensed muscles are quite springy, but a layer of fat is pretty much a pure damper. It seems that a low BMI is essential for recument power delivery! Yet an other reason for me to sit on a diet, lol.

Oh, and yet an other anecdotal evidence: I've recently sold my recumbent to a friend who is much less 'powerful' (DF times on brevets we've cycles together), yet much thinner than me. He only had about 500 kms of recument practice (an other recumbent that he has trouble on due to poor fitting).
He instantly was able to pretty much match my speed on the flats and, of course, was faster uphill but that is expectable (I'm about 90+ being 180cm, he is about 70 kgs while being almost 190).
And he didn't even have contact pedals!

Talking of 'springiness', here are two articles by Jan Heine, whom I respect very much (he is also a 'maverick' of sorts, and backs up his unorthodox claims with hard science):

https://janheine.wordpress.com/2014/11/23/what-is-planing/
https://janheine.wordpress.com/2014/12/31/the-biomechanics-of-planing/

'Swinging boom effect' sounds very much like that planing described by Heine!
Though, it does not bode well for the explanation of better power delivery of Cruzbikes by 'frame stiffness'. It seems that (up to a point, likely) frame flex is actually beneficial!
 
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Balor

Zen MBB Master
More results from my brainstorming, and yet an other argument for MBB design:

a. The pulls must be perfect synced with your legs. If you simply exert static pull on your handlebars, you'll tire yourself MUCH faster - when muscle is experiencing static contraction, it blocks blood flow to the muscle, anaerobic metabolism kicks in and you are quickly sucked dry of muscle glycogen and flooded with lactate!

I've tried pulling on my handlebars in as much as I could in sync with pedalling (despite hamster bars being pretty horrible for that), and I can say - this is very tricky!

Yet MBB provides PERFECT feedback for when you must pull, and how strong you must pull!

b. Arguments from BROL, that 'all that extra effort from your arms will suck your energy reserves and limit your maximum power output'... true to a point, however:

As anyone who is both into cycling and running (or, better yet, cross-country skiing) knows, it is EXTREMELY hard to max out your heart rate while cycling, as compared to running, that recruits more muscles.
Of course, it applies to people that trained and healthy heart and lungs.

But in most cases (for me, at least) even during painful and grueling FTP efforts during TTs I still have quite a bit of 'heart rate reserve'.

For me, my anaerobic heart rate is about 160 when cycling, and 170 when running.
Therefore, on Cruzbike, it is quite possible to recruit your arms and upper body, have higher heart and respiration (VOmax) rate, and NOT going over your anaerobic threshold!

Of course, this is not important on DF - you are given 'free lunch' by the way of gravity and your own weight.

But just think, how would you cycle in microgravity? (Let's leave traction out for sake of argument :))
You would not be able to cycle on DF, except by pulling on the handlebars, Lance-style!

Yet, you'll feel quite at home on a recumbent - you may not, in fact, notice much of a difference! You'll just push against the seat like you always do.
However... see above about human flesh having nice damping characteristics.
 

Balor

Zen MBB Master
Thought a bit more... nope, you cannot emulate pulling on handlebars with a fixed boom.

It is all about oscillations of power that get damped, and you have to time your pulls EXACTLY to "cancel them out".
I think this is pretty much impossible without MBB feedback.
Simply pulling on the bars will just tire you out, but oscillations (you pedal pushes) will still remain!
 

MrSteve

Zen MBB Master
MBB recumbent bicycles have much more in common with UCI standard bicycles than they do with non-MBB recumbent bicycles.
Your basic question about a recumbent's inability to climb is really not valid here, in this forum, as applied to Cruzbikes.
Your question, when you posted on BROL, makes a lot more sense there: that's not Cruzbike territory... yet.
 

mzweili

Guru
MrSteve, I think the statement below (post #62) applies very well to the cruzbikes.

I've noticed that when I apply force with my foot and not my upper body, my posterior is driven back and squished into the seat with a lot of power loss.

When I apply force with my foot and counter it with my upper body, essentially 'prying open' between my foot and my upper body, I am no longer wasting energy squishing my bum against the seat. The efficiency of power transfer seems noticeably better.
 

Balor

Zen MBB Master
Yet more news from the front:

Hysteresivity of muscle is from 10% (tensed muscle, I suppose) to 20%, hysteresivity of adipose tissue is about 22%.
Seems to correlate very well with most figures I've encountered! Seems to correlate with MY data very well too!

10 percent for extra weight, 20 for power transfer losses, a few percent for less than perfect pedalling angle and me not being to 100% accustomed to bents (bent legs)... so, here is my ~40% loss of sustained climbing speed! And even superior aerodynamics cannot account for such huge drop in efficiency.

Anyone seen exact percentage of 'steering feedback force' as opposed to 'force on pedal' for Cruzbikes, I wonder? 100% of 'force feedback' would, in some cases, result in 20% increase in power at the very least!
 
Adipose?
2653973854_35594e4b97.jpg
 

Balor

Zen MBB Master
You know, I think I've found yet an OTHER 'power sink' in recumbents, closely related to the one I've described:

Rearward weight transfer under acceleration!

Contrary to popular opinion, FS bikes 'bob' not because of rider shifing around when pedaling, but due to rearward weight transfer that loads the rear wheel, causing suspension to sag, then it gets 'unweighted' and some power is dissipated in the suspension damper.

So, it seems to me that even fully rigid recumbents are like fully suspended in practice - weight transfer causes you to push into your seat back with every NON-smooth pedal stroke, damped oscillations (in your flesh and seat padding) occur, power is lost!
And this does not apply to DF bikes at all, because, TADA, you counter it with pulling on the bars!
In fact, when I accelerate real hard on my road bike, I REALLY feel this effect and have to hold on my hoods for dear life!
I bet same happens with MBB bikes too (I mean, instinctive counteraction by pulling on the bars). Hot damn, I'm on a roll.

Again, I'm not sure how to test it, but this is REAL stuff.
 
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bladderhead

Zen MBB Master
So now I am teaching myself bar-pulling, and trying to stop myself seat-pushing.

All the cyclists know the One Commandment. There is always the One Commandment. Spin, Do Not Mash. Blessed are the spinners, for they will inherit the Yellow Jersey. Those who mash are forever condemned to destroy their kneebones.

For the MBB tribe there is now an extra Commandment: Pull, Do Not Push. He who pulleth will outclimb the triathletes. What profiteth a man if he hath the stiffest triangle but only sqasheth his ventisit and his kidneys?

I suppose it might aid digestion
 

MrSteve

Zen MBB Master
What I have learned about powering my bike works wonders for me, powering my bike.
What some fail to see is that what works so well for me may only work as well as it does for me.

However, the basics must be learned first:
Thou shalt honor the basic instructions with your undivided attention.
All who master the basics shall be blessed with new knowledge;
those who fail ... have better things to do than bash the knowledge that they fail to grasp.
 

murmur

Member
Jim, I think you were on the right track in June with your diagrams. But I don't think the question "what's the effect on BB torque from a dynamic BB position" is really the best one to ask. What we really want to know is the power split between legs and upper body when using a dynamic BB position, i.e. MBB.

In the case where the bottom bracket doesn't move, i.e. all pedaling torques around the steer tube are instantaneously canceled by the torque from the hands on the bars, then we know the power split is 100% legs, 0% upper body. (For the upper-body portion, I'm talking about the power that is actually transferred from the upper body to the bike; if the bars don't move, the upper body can't provide any power.).

As Jim's diagrams show, when the BB does move throughout a pedal revolution, it changes the extension distance of the foot, i.e. the distance the foot moves during the leg's flexion-to-extension half-cycle. At the same time, of course, the bars move, allowing for the possibility of power input from the upper body.

What I propose is that the power split between legs and upper body is (almost?) entirely determined by the change in flexion-to-extension distance at the pedal. And we can calculate that difference; I did it graphically, below, using pieces from your earlier images, but of course the answer for any given bike will depend on the exact geometry of the bike. The first image compares stationary-BB pedal location for leg flexion (left) and leg extension (on the right). The distances are in some units chosen by my graphics program, so they don't correspond to real-world distances. But that won't affect our leg/upper-body power-split answers.
Fig1.pngThe difference between the two is 3.24" in image units. Next, measure the change in flexion and extension pedal positions when the BB moves. We'll assume the best BB movement to *shorten* the flexion-to-extension distance:
Fig2.pngThe difference between flexion and extension distances is now 3.03". Which means that by moving the BB during the half-crank-rotation for one side, the pedal moves a shorter distance by the ratio 3.03/3.24, or 93.5% of the stationary-BB distance.

And that 93.5% (again, for this chosen geometry, using Jim's original ±4.76-degree steering rotation over a full crank cycle) is the key factor in determining power split. Why?

Because of energy-balance. Let's suppose that whatever force was provided by the foot to the pedal with a static BB is the same force used when riding with a moving BB. Same cadence, too. Not too hard to imagine. In this case, with a moving BB, the energy transferred to the drivetrain by the feet during a crank cycle is going to be 93.5% of that transferred with a static BB, because Energy = Force times Distance.

But what if we add, to the thought-experiment situation at hand, the requirement that TOTAL energy transferred to the drivetrain during a crank cycle (from the human rider) is the same, whether MBB or stationary BB? Where would the last 6.5% of the stationary-BB's energy input come from, when riding in MBB mode? Well there's only one place it *can* come from: the upper body, via the bars.

So for this particular graphically-defined geometry, the energy split per crank rev (and therefore the power split) is 14.4-to-1, legs-to-upper-body. If the force of the feet on the pedals in MBB mode is increased enough to restore the LEG power back to 100% of the LEG power for the static-BB case, then we have a brand-new 6.5% gain in power, with the source being: the upper body.

Dave
 

Apollo

Well-Known Member
So for this particular graphically-defined geometry, the energy split per crank rev (and therefore the power split) is 14.4-to-1, legs-to-upper-body. If the force of the feet on the pedals in MBB mode is increased enough to restore the LEG power back to 100% of the LEG power for the static-BB case, then we have a brand-new 6.5% gain in power, with the source being: the upper body.
Interesting thought experiment, do you have an idea how this could be accomplished?
 

Jim Parker

Cruzbike, Inc. Director
Staff member
Hi Dave, I like your analysis because the modest amount of power coming from the upper body that you have calculated (6.5%) is about what I would have estimated based on "feel".

The ability to engage, at will, upper body muscles to contribute even 5% of the power during a climb is very advantageous, especially during a long race with lots of hills when individual muscles are fatigued and depleted of glycogen.

"Leg-only" spinning is the best way to do most of the climbing on long grades, but being able to occasionally mix it up with upper-body input will help get you to the top faster. This is the reason DF pros get out of the saddle sometimes, and one of the reasons for Cruzbike racers' success in climbing events compared to fixed-boom recumbents.

Jim
 

murmur

Member
Interesting thought experiment, do you have an idea how this could be accomplished?

Testing for these numbers in real life is going to take a serious data-gathering setup. Any bicycle power meter I know of is going to sense the totality of the power generated (legs + upper body), because all of that power ends up appearing as Force times Distance (divided by time) around the pedal-circle of the crank. There's some possibility of instrumenting the boom or the bars, I think, to extract structural bending moment parallel to the steer-tube axis (which would then be multiplied by steering-angle rate to get power input from the upper body.). That's an undertaking on a par with engineering a new power meter! Actually it's even harder than that, because there's nothing to compare the partial-power answers to in order to estimate accuracy.

There may be a possibility for a less direct method, using a crank-based power meter along with a recording of steering angle and frame motion (angular roll and yaw rates) during a ride-segment of interest. These might be enough to calculate the power split, because of the fact that torque applied to front triangle around the steering axis has to equal the angular acceleration of that triangle around the steering axis multiplied by the moment of inertia (essentially, the weight) of the front triangle. I'll have to think about this some more before deciding if this approach has real merit.

Dave
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Cruzbike_sig.png
 

Jim Parker

Cruzbike, Inc. Director
Staff member
Here is a "bench" research project I have recently posted for any Mech Eng MS students to perform. This will be a lot easier than trying to gather data on the road. -Jim

Title: Does leaning the bicycle frame increases torque (and power) while climbing or sprinting?

Introduction: Cycling experts do not agree on exactly how standing up out of the saddle gets racers over the hill faster. There are probably multiple factors involved, such as altering which muscles groups are being used (glycogen depletion, etc.). This study will examine the hypothesis that using the upper body to lean the bicycle frame (by alternately pulling on the handlebars) provides a mechanical advantage to the cranks… and thus more power to drive the wheel.

This is an indoor lab study requiring simple equipment including bicycles with a dynamometer built into the crank (such as the Stages power meter) or other torque measuring device. No cycling volunteers are required. Static (drive wheel locked to prevent rotating) torque will be measured at the crank through the various 360 degree positions of the crank under a constant force (perpendicular to the crank arm) with and without the bicycle frame being forcefully leaned via the handlebars. Standard road bike and both RWD and FWD recumbent bicycles (Cruzbike, NC, USA will provide the recumbent bikes) will also be tested and compared (3 bikes in total). Recumbent bicycles are included because they are reputed to be poor at climbing. The researcher will quantify impulse-torque input through the handlebars (which acts to lean the frame), and quantify torque increase (if any) at the crank, for the three types of bicycles.

Equipment: a platform and stand to hold the bicycles, pulleys with weights to apply a constant force to the pedals across various positions of the cranks. Recumbent bicycles and Stages power meter (dynamometer) crank .
 
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