Deep Rims

[DavidCH]

So going tubeless on a 80mm deep rim, what sort of valve to get in order to make this wheel tubeless?

I bought this from www.light-bicycle.com , and it looks pretty good. Keep you posted...

 

[ratz]

You'll need Values plus 60mm extenders.
Recommend attaching the extenders with blue locktite

http://www.schwalbetires.com/taxonomy/term/567
http://www.schwalbetires.com/accessories/rim_tape

Be aware that rim is 15.4mm inner width, that means it probably wasn't conceived as tubeless to start with If it was tubless optimized you would see an inner width of >=17mm

That's going to make the tire sit taller and it's going to be less secure at lower pressure.

Also the outer width 23mm ;so it's optimized for a 700C x 23 tire If you want to run 25mm tires you probably should look elsewhere; put a 25mm tire on that rim will negate the Aero properties quite a bit. For 25mm tires you want to see a an outer of >25mm This problem is made worse when combined with the narrow inner rim as it gives wide tires a "muffin top"

You need the tire to be equal to, or slightly more narrow than the leading edge of the rim to avoid creating air vortexes on the leading edge. If you get the vortex the air will detact from the surface and it likely won't reattached to the surface of the wheel in time to get an aero benefit.

 

[DavidCH]

The rim outer width ordered was for a 23mm so pretty sure the inner width is a little larger than 17mm, when I get back tonight I will measure up. I was going to put a 26mm tubeless tire on it at the weekend.

The freehub is a lot louder than my Mavics. Guess that could be a good thing unless you wanted stealth.

 

[ratz]

The freehub is a lot louder than my Mavics. Guess that could be a good thing unless you wanted stealth.

Those are great when you want to just coast on the tail of a DF rider working hard.

 

[LarryOz]

The rim outer width ordered was for a 23mm so pretty sure the inner width is a little larger than 17mm, when I get back tonight I will measure up. I was going to put a 26mm tubeless tire on it at the weekend.

These look very close to the 80mm rims I had made with the custom "Cruzbike Vendetta" logo on them.
I will be very interested in how mounting the 26mm tubeless works on them.
What brand of tubeless are you using? What kind of sealant?
Looking forward to your report - as I am looking to switch over to tubeless myself very soon

 

[DavidCH]

I am going to use Bontrager; their sealant is good and their tires are a little more forgiving.

 

[DavidCH]

Well I have sized up and read a lot. It appears a 25mm tyre is best for a 23mm rim. My inner rim is 17mm as far as I can tell as the rim has a lip for a clincher tyre.

I guess if I ran 26mm tyres on a 23mm rim I would loose a percentage of the aerodynamics but not sure how much.

www.light-bicycle.com does do a 25mm rim but not in a deep rim of 80mm.

So I guess I could change the 26mm tyre for a 25. It cheaper to do that than change the rim.

 

[ratz]

Well I have sized up and read a lot. It appears a 25mm tyre is best for a 23mm rim. My inner rim is 17mm as far as I can tell as the rim has a lip for a clincher tyre.

I guess if I ran 26mm tyres on a 23mm rim I would loose a percentage of the aerodynamics but not sure how much.

www.light-bicycle.com does do a 25mm rim but not in a deep rim of 80mm.

So I guess I could change the 26mm tyre for a 25. It cheaper to do that than change the rim.

The good part is that's wider than the specs on their website. And it's more modern at those sizes. They probably just haven't update the website yet.

The other fun part; you won't know the true width of a given brand of tire until you mount it and inflate it; and test it with a caliper. Conti, Bontrager, Michelle, and Schwable all mount up differently. But I would agree try the 25mm. On thing you can do is buy just Qty 1 25mm and mount it on the rear wheel; if it's two wide or too narrow; it doesn't matter as much back there; then order the more optimal size for the front drive wheel.

 

[DavidCH]

www.light-bicycle.com is one of those companies that you can negotiate with. I have lighter spokes on this and the hub has ceramic bearings. So I am good to go. They even give you cork brake pads to go with the carbon wheel.

 

[LarryOz]

So going tubeless on a 80mm deep rim, what sort of valve to get in order to make this wheel tubeless?

I bought this from www.light-bicycle.com , and it looks pretty good. Keep you posted...

David,
I bought my original 80mm CF wheels (with Cruzbike Vendetta logos) from light bicycle about 18 months ago. They where great and fast. Too bad I included them in the trade of my V2.2 for the M1
Anyway - I emailed light-bicycle about the rims I bought and asked them if they were tubeless compatible. They said that they were not and also that they currently do not sell any 80mm rims that are.
They said they should have something in a couple of months. On there web-site their 55mm rim depth are tubeless compatible. http://www.light-bicycle.com/carbon-road-bike/carbon-road-bike-wheels/clincher--55mm

I actually spent lunch today talking with a guy that used to work at I9 wheels. He explained to me why I should not "covert" any of my current wheelsets to tubeless.
If I understood him correctly it basically boils down to how the "lower outside" edges of the rims are constructed. To "really' fit the tubeless tires there needs to be a little "ledge" below the lip that allows the bead of the tubeless to seat into the rim well.
He said - "I won't say it won't work - at least for awhile. The air pressure will force the bead against the edge of the rim, but as the air slowly excapes or heavy cornering force is appliced, the bead could slip down towards the middle of the tire (since there is no ledge for it to set on), then the tire will roll off the bead."

Then you will basically go down - and if it is on your front tire - which it most likely will be - since it is the tire that is carving the turn - then you go down like I have so many times.

I am scared enough now of flatting and going down AGAIN and have seen the light! I am now looking for a true tubeless compatible wheelset to go with my "other" 10 wheelsets - augh!

David,
If your tube does not have this "ledge", then I would be very tentative to mount the tubeless tires on it. It just does not seem to be worth the risk - but stick a GP4000Sii and a latex tire on those wheels and they will fly!
Good Luck and keep us informed of what you decide to do!

 

[Robert Holler]

Sigh.... clinchers all the way please - especially on our bikes. I do NOT recommend anything but a good clincher rim on our bikes. Plus this has been tested and tested and tested and clinchers are actually faster anyway.

 

[JOSEPHWEISSERT]

Then you go down like I have so many times.

"That's what she said" - Michael Scott.

 

[ratz]

Sigh.... clinchers all the way please - especially on our bikes. I do NOT recommend anything but a good clincher rim on our bikes. Plus this has been tested and tested and tested and clinchers are actually faster anyway.

Isn't the key phrase here "good" or better a "Great" clincher ?

The A67 Cruzbike wheel holds Air like no clincher I've ever seen it's not a good wheel it's a great wheel with an almost great hub; The two bikes in the basement on the trainers have A67's now and have held air for 2 months straight no pumping (arguably with a crap budget tube the LBS had on hand); that's absolutely and absurdly good in a 65degree basement. The bikes are sat on 5-6 times a week for 2+ hours. Those wheels are still the best steal for a tube wheel going. I've been recommending them to roadies looking for an easy upgrade from the crap that comes with their bikes.

But... a properly built tubeless (No ghetto, No knock offs, No thin rim early model modes) from a major player are getting good now and they are a clincher in the end being built for both.

In my limited corner of the world.... no design problems from the Reynolds or Bontragers we have run. We have about 6000+ miles on tubless on the Silvio and Vendetta platforms. The one and only blow out that was human error (I was being a cheapskate). So Zero flats. and one self induced problem. Mean while I routinely go round and round on the highschool track torquing the crap out of them.

BUT you would never get me on a knock off wheel or one with any rim damage. Once there are any dings in the RIMs they have to relegated to tubes. The Tubeless Tire on the bike in the basement needs to be replace, it has a ½ inch cut in it, yet it still holds air for 2-3 hours. Not about the top speed for me.

Now it would be curious to see if Larry and David are getting conflicting info; David's wheels seem to be a newer design than on the web site.

So my point would be; beware tubeless in any budget wheel. The budget guys are being forced to compete with tubeless; anyone can "claim" tubeless ready but not everyone can engineer them. So that is makes us concerned for our extended family here;

Test, Question, Report back.... and be skeptical. Rubber side down.

 

[DavidCH]

I haven't quite given up the idea. Be rest assured I am very astute when it comes to safety. Yes I realize that the rim is for clincher and that is why I chose R3 Bontrager TLR tires which are sold as a clincher tubeless ready. I did buy the version before that being the R2 TLR as this is considerably cheaper but not as fast, just to prove this engineering feat is possible. I decided on the Orange Sealant so I will keep you all posted.

Knowing how fast I can go on the V I am determined to at least have a slow flat instead of a blow out. The idea of scraping my precious arse along a tarmac is not in the least entertaining.

Engineering is a science of compromise
DCH 2002

 

[LarryOz]

The idea of scraping my precious arse along a tarmac is not in the least entertaining.

Believe me, it is only entertaining to everyone else - for some reason especially to the person that has to help you change your dressings all the time!
Looking forward to your feedback!

 

[DavidCH]

the bead could slip down towards the middle of the tire

I will monitor it... I will mark a white line around the rim and then before every ride/during; I can look at the rim and see how it's travelled.

Ironically the aura5 Bontrager carbon wheel won't hold the air and that is tubeless compatible. I haven't quite given up yet. It's a weird one. I pumped it up to 100 psi and put it in the bath and no bubbles. But it still lost 80 psi during the night; if I had a jaquizzi I would put the whole wheel in that instead of just part of the rim. I have some super DT Swiss tape just in case I have a hole in the under skirting and replaced the valve.

The wheel was pumped up before I left for Florida and the pressure held for 3 days, even though I hadn't used it on the bike.

Well if I did get a blow out with these tires the whole rim would bust. It's almost impossible to get the friggen tire on and off. Guess that could be a good thing for a slow flat.

 

[LarryOz]

I will monitor it... I will mark a white line around the rim and then before every ride/during; I can look at the rim and see how it's travelled.

David,
Go idea, but I also fear the real problem is that is will "slip" while riding (probably cornering) and then you are on the ground.

I have a found another Chinese make of Carbon Fiber rims/wheels that now has the true-tubeless profile:
with R38 PowerRay CF hub and Sapin Sookes - $605. They can build with cheaper R13 hub and regular spokes to for closer to $500 I think.
I emailed back and forth with the seller all last night asking questions and getting answers - finally ordered a set. Should have it in a couple of weeks. Will post my progress and testing here also.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/86mm-Carbon...al&tfrom=221854148568&tpos=unknow&ttype=price

 

[DavidCH]

I have a found another Chinese make of Carbon Fiber rims

This looks well good, I like eating pie, even if it's humble. Guess I do a halfway house and stick an inner tube with sealant. Good to know you found a link.

I like the idea that due to my perseverance that you have ordered a front wheel that reduces the amount you fall off.

I did a 50km ride today, testing a few things out and on the way back the wind was really bad. I felt as though I've been up a mountain and that was without deep rims.

 

[Robert Holler]

Isn't the key phrase here "good" or better a "Great" clincher ?

The A67 Cruzbike wheel holds Air like no clincher I've ever seen it's not a good wheel it's a great wheel with an almost great hub; The two bikes in the basement on the trainers have A67's now and have held air for 2 months straight no pumping (arguably with a crap budget tube the LBS had on hand); that's absolutely and absurdly good in a 65degree basement. The bikes are sat on 5-6 times a week for 2+ hours. Those wheels are still the best steal for a tube wheel going. I've been recommending them to roadies looking for an easy upgrade from the crap that comes with their bikes.

But... a properly built tubeless (No ghetto, No knock offs, No thin rim early model modes) from a major player are getting good now and they are a clincher in the end being built for both.

In my limited corner of the world.... no design problems from the Reynolds or Bontragers we have run. We have about 6000+ miles on tubless on the Silvio and Vendetta platforms. The one and only blow out that was human error (I was being a cheapskate). So Zero flats. and one self induced problem. Mean while I routinely go round and round on the highschool track torquing the crap out of them.

BUT you would never get me on a knock off wheel or one with any rim damage. Once there are any dings in the RIMs they have to relegated to tubes. The Tubeless Tire on the bike in the basement needs to be replace, it has a ½ inch cut in it, yet it still holds air for 2-3 hours. Not about the top speed for me.

Now it would be curious to see if Larry and David are getting conflicting info; David's wheels seem to be a newer design than on the web site.

So my point would be; beware tubeless in any budget wheel. The budget guys are being forced to compete with tubeless; anyone can "claim" tubeless ready but not everyone can engineer them. So that is makes us concerned for our extended family here;

Test, Question, Report back.... and be skeptical. Rubber side down.

Bob,

I agree with a lot of your post, but in our experience we see a lot of people (roadies and recumbents together so no one group in particular) doing improper installation of these systems on very budget rims that sometimes are not even true to begin with, resulting in failure. The more complicated these become and the more precise the install needs to be to prevent a failure the more trouble it is as more and more people try to handle these kinds of instals on their own without finding the proper mechanic to install or at the very least show them how to do it.

As as you mention that many bikes come stock with crappy wheels, which to me is always shocking as it is a critical element to keeping you safe. But the reality is that 80% plus of people opt for the lowest common denominator in wheels even when "upgrading" - sometimes due to price, sometimes due to other beliefs they hold about wheels in general (like wanting as few spokes as humanly possible - always a "WTF" to me)

 

[LarryOz]

I did a 50km ride today, testing a few things out and on the way back the wind was really bad. I felt as though I've been up a mountain and that was without deep rims.

I think you eventually get used to them. I just takes more upper body strength, control, and especially awareness.
Nothing like a full disc in the front. I rode Sebring 24 back 2015 with 2 full discs - that was tiring both mentally and physically