Deep Rims

[ratz]

Bob,

I agree with a lot of your post, but in our experience we see a lot of people (roadies and recumbents together so no one group in particular) doing improper installation of these systems on very budget rims that sometimes are not even true to begin with, resulting in failure. The more complicated these become and the more precise the install needs to be to prevent a failure the more trouble it is as more and more people try to handle these kinds of instals on their own without finding the proper mechanic to install or at the very least show them how to do it.

As as you mention that many bikes come stock with crappy wheels, which to me is always shocking as it is a critical element to keeping you safe. But the reality is that 80% plus of people opt for the lowest common denominator in wheels even when "upgrading" - sometimes due to price, sometimes due to other beliefs they hold about wheels in general (like wanting as few spokes as humanly possible - always a "WTF" to me)

I concur; tubeless make short cuts more obvious; my Larry slide was a quick lesson in doing it right. Hardy is having good tubeless results but he's the classic do it correct and careful person; and he's a skeptic by default.

It's important that when we share this knowledge that we pause and mention the cautionary item. I won't tell anyone not to buy Chinnesse budget wheels; I'll warn against it, and watch closely, with interest, to see if they succeed. Sadly I don't often think about the torque on our front wheels; I'm wired "Good, Fast, Cheap" pick two. So I assume people understand the implications for Cheap.

That's what great about our little corner of the Internet here; lots of good info; cautionary advise and enough risk tackers to push the edge. And we get to discuss it from every Angle.

Oh and people those A67 wheels really are out right theft. I was not a believer; now that I have some..... for starter wheels and for anything other than deep v carbon; you are going to be hard pressed to do better. You can alway buy the wheels and have them rebuilt with better super high end hubs if you must; you we'll be many $$$ ahead. They just aren't tubeless.

Ironically the aura5 Bontrager carbon wheel won't hold the air and that is tubeless compatible.

I had to use a mix of Bontrager and Stans sealant to get a multi-day air seal. The #1 place the Aura looses air is at the Stem. I started using silcone caulk on the head of the stem inside the wheel and the problem went away.

 

[ReklinedRider]

6 weeks or so riding tubeless on the RōL D'Huez wheels with 28mm Schwalbe One's. I added air to them this past Sunday for the first time (yes I check air pressure before every ride ). They are not carbon nor are they any more aero than the A67's but they hold air amazingly well. Seem to be a good choice so far if you're after tubeless.
www.rolwheels.com

 

[DavidCH]

The #1 place the Aura looses air is at the Stem. I started using silcone caulk on the head of the stem inside the wheel and the problem went away.

I will have to buy you a drink, if I ever see you. That was a great solution. I also used the orange sealant first time. I think it's probably the best sealant there is.

With the carbon clincher rim, I will put an inner tube with sealant just for safety's sake.

 

[DavidCH]

I have a found another Chinese make of Carbon Fiber rims/wheels that now has the true-tubeless profile

Larry, I wonder if you can get a disc brake with this wheel? I have read a number of reports that rim brakes and carbon wheels have an issue with long down hills.

If you do decide to use rim brakes with carbon wheels; its better to just jab the brakes now and then, instead of keeping them engaged.

The heat can be enough to damage the rim and the tire.

 

[LarryOz]

Larry, I wonder if you can get a disc brake with this wheel?
Here is one of their listings: You can ask them a question off of ebay.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/221854158959

I have read a number of reports that rim brakes and carbon wheels have an issue with long down hills.

The issue obviously is with braking and the carbon rim heating up. I think if you use the special pads for carbon and be careful, you should be ok. Personally I am opposed to braking unless absolutely necessary. It tends to slow me down!

If you do decide to use rim brakes with carbon wheels; its better to just jab the brakes now and then, instead of keeping them engaged.

True. I have had to do this on rare occasions, like descending from the Blue Ridge Parkway. I am mostly a flatlander rider now.

 

[DavidCH]

Ok... Been a bit long getting back on this bike , I pumped the tires up to 100psi but I think I will go with 90psi as the images of cars in the mirror are blurred in places where the road was rough. I was pleased with the front rim as I was a little apprehensive in the wind.

Easter is early this year and there were a lot of people visiting so plenty of rubber necking (looking at the Vendetta) ... Some local club riders turned up at the same restaurante but couldn't give a hoot. They just wanted their ice cold beer. They looked pretty done and dusted.

I am giving up sugar after watching "The Sugar Film".

I never knew there were 34 teaspoons of sugar in a bottle of Mountain Dew.

Quite unbelievable

 

[LarryOz]

I did some testing on Saturday with my 4 sets of deep rim wheels and various tires.
Basically the Pro One tubeless (with latex tubes) performed on par with my Tri-Spoke and "Relentless" wheelset (Alum rim w/60mm CF faring) with Conti GP4000sii with latex tubes.



Here is a link to the spreadsheet if you can't see it very well above: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/15PsBDaYMy_gKGymXglIuyMDFcTYZaYcHVWqm-rhGsBI/edit?usp=sharing

 

[DavidCH]

Gee wizz.... That's a lot of wheels. It's a bit surprising. I would have thought the zip with Ican CF with Pro One would have been the best. That Ican wheelset looks well smart. I tried to buy some pro one's today but everywhere in Europe seems to be sold out, unless of course you wanted the 23mm. Guess I will have to wait, I am after the 25mm.

 

[LarryOz]

I tried to buy some pro one's today but everywhere in Europe seems to be sold out, unless of course you wanted the 23mm. Guess I will have to wait, I am after the 25mm.

This is where I got my set of Pro Ones 25mm's: http://www.ebay.com/itm/141843563402
The price is "ridiculous" because he does not have any.

Email him "joeyangair2010", and ask him to email you when he gets some in.
Then you should be able to order them. That is what I did. It took about a week. Good Luck

 

[trplay]

I would suggest folks buy their pro ones HERE They are around $46.56 ea. plus $11 for shipping. Buy two and shipping isn't so bad. I have bought from xxcycles for years and never had any problems.

 

[ratz]

I would suggest folks buy their pro ones HERE They are around $46.56 ea. plus $11 for shipping. Buy two and shipping isn't so bad. I have bought from xxcycles for years and never had any problems.

Ditto on xxcycles.

 

[Bill K]

Larry, I'm amazed how efficient you are... 22 mph on 150 watts.
Last week my new V20 (3 months old) took 223 watts (avg) to go 22.1 mph (level ground, paved mup, and less than 2 mph headwind at the time).
https://www.strava.com/activities/525918954/analysis/953/1835

Looks like there is good reason for me to ditch the 26" wheels, fenders, dynohub, scarab bag, and everything else I put on the V since I bought it!

Bill

 

[DavidCH]

xxcycles

That was interesting. Yes XXCycles are out of 25mm but I did notice there are two types of 28' being sold, one for rim size 23mm and one for rim size 28mm.

 

[LarryOz]

Larry, I'm amazed how efficient you are... 22 mph on 150 watts.
Last week my new V20 (3 months old) took 223 watts (avg) to go 22.1 mph (level ground, paved mup, and less than 2 mph headwind at the time).
https://www.strava.com/activities/525918954/analysis/953/1835
Looks like there is good reason for me to ditch the 26" wheels, fenders, dynohub, scarab bag, and everything else I put on the V since I bought it!

Thanks Bill,
A lot of it is probably just "aero-ness" of me on the bike through a lot of trial and error with different equipment.
These other things also contribute:
I weight about 160 pounds'
60 or 80 mm rims on my wheels, and/or a solid disc rear
Conti GP4000sii tires with latex tubes
Carry nothing with me except a couple of water bottles (and not under the seat)
Giro attack helmet with visor
shorter cranks (140mm) - smaller hole that my feet and legs have to punch through the air with.
Tiny little Stubby handlebar (takes a while to learn to ride with this guy!)


I also do most of my steady steady and testing on a high school track, so never have to stop or coast or anything like that

When the conditions are perfect, I can really fly. For me, my most incredible "speed for wattage" ride happened last July 29.
https://www.strava.com/activities/356619174/analysis
I hadn't gotten my century ride in for the month and time had run out. I had dentist appointment around 8:30, so I got up in the middle of the night about 3:30 am and took off to the track.
I ended up averaging an amazing 24.7 mph on just 155 watts, and I even crashed due to fogged up glasses and visor, and had to pick myself back up and going again.
1st 100 miles in 4:06:46 with the crash.
Conditions that I think really helped: warm air, no wind, humid morning, plus I only weighed 150 pounds around then too. It was the perfect storm in the middle of the night.

Man Bill, with your 223 watts of power - once you "aero" out you bike, you should be going about 26-27 mph!
It all just depends on what your goals are. Me - I just want to go as fast as possible all the time.
I'm not much of "recreational" rider in that sense... I'll ride along lazily with other folks at 18-20 for a while, but having the Vendetta under you is like having a thoroughbred horse under you - eventually you just have to "let her go and see where she takes you! Good Luck!!

 

[DavidCH]

want to go as fast as possible all the time.

Ditto but couldn't get to grips with that handlebar

 

[LarryOz]

Ditto but couldn't get to grips with that handlebar

I does take a while to master it - but it also increases speed by about 1/2 mph with the same wattage.
Some have pointed out (Jim P for one) that I am probably giving up the ability to use my upper body for any power input since no real leverage with the stubby handlebar, which may be true.
It is a hard thing to measure though, but if true, then it would be trading one for the other, and might turn out to be a wash.

I have also been working on an even more extreme handlebar copied from a top-fuel dragster, where then hand-holds are vertical instead of horizontal, and your knuckles on your hands are virtually touching each other.
I made a "plastic" one last year and mounted it to the slider tube, but was unable to ride the bike with it. Now that I am adept at riding with the small straight bar, I might resurrect the "dragster bar".

On the left - actual steering wheel from top-fuel dragster - on right - my aluminum template (unbent of course) which would be smaller and narrower - time to try something new I guess!

 

[Steve Short]

Larry, what about adding mtn. bike bar ends to the short stuby bar. It would be similar to the drag wheel position.

 

[LarryOz]

Larry, what about adding mtn. bike bar ends to the short stuby bar. It would be similar to the drag wheel position.

That is a good idea and I'll try it.
The one thing that the dragster bars give me is the ability to push the slider more away from me and make my arms straighter, which I would not be able to do with the MTB bars ends because I can't push the slider forward at all or else the stubby bar will hit my legs.

 

[brokemyback]

I does take a while to master it...mounted it to the slider tube, but was unable to ride the bike with it. Now that I am adept at riding with the small straight bar, I might resurrect the "dragster bar"...

From my feeble understanding of torque and lever arms, it looks like short/narrow bars are reducing the lever arm about the steering head tube pivot axis. This means that narrow bars require you to modulate the bars side-to-side to counteract pedal forces. With the stock wide bars, you can push and pull (forward and aft) to generate the torque needed to counteract pedaling forces.
Exerting side-to-side force with extended arms will be difficult. Even if you're strong enough, there is probably some muscle motor control granularity lost. I'm thinking a person has better fine input control using arms for pushing/pulling, compared to side/side force. If you're adept at no-hands riding, maybe the loss of handlebar input is not a problem.

Some levers that would allow keeping arms tucked in could turn the motion back into push/pull, but add a lot of complexity. I'm thinking of "big wheel" style levers.

 

[MrSteve]

From my feeble understanding of torque and lever arms, it looks like short/narrow bars are reducing the lever arm about the steering head tube pivot axis. This means that narrow bars require you to modulate the bars side-to-side to counteract pedal forces. With the stock wide bars, you can push and pull (forward and aft) to generate the torque needed to counteract pedaling forces.
Exerting side-to-side force with extended arms will be difficult. Even if you're strong enough, there is probably some muscle motor control granularity lost. I'm thinking a person has better fine input control using arms for pushing/pulling, compared to side/side force. If you're adept at no-hands riding, maybe the loss of handlebar input is not a problem....

The narrowest bars I've seen mounted on MBB FWD bikes were Tom Traylors unique folding handlebars which, when folded,
put his hands together in front of straight arms and the Sofabike, another handmade FWD MBB bike which has short stubs
welded on the top of the TFT which puts your hands together in front of straight arms.
Like you said, becoming comfortable with steering with your legs is pretty much a requirement for using speedy, aerodynamic narrow handlebars.