Deep Rims

[jond]

Some have pointed out (Jim P for one) that I am probably giving up the ability to use my upper body for any power input since no real leverage with the stubby handlebar, which may be true.
It is a hard thing to measure though, but if true, then it would be trading one for the other, and might turn out to be a wash.

larry no matter if it does turn out to be a "wash" it will be a very quick one.

one question Larry do you think you could climb with your narrow bars??

jim P is right that control is lost when you narrow your bars and use of upper body input becomes problematic in terms of lost leverage and finite control.

experience can mediate but not counter this however because at some point you lose upper body potential input and exacting control of the boom but make gain from the aero position.

i think the main thing you lose is a potential pedal style for the sake of aero and speed. and larry at your speeds fitness and power that probably does not matter.

larry you will have to build that wind tunnel for the washing machine after all.

 

[RAR]

Yes but the real question is, If Julius Caesar had a Piper Cub, would it have made a difference?

 

[MrSteve]

Just a gentle little reminder... powerful U.C.I. sprinters get up out of the saddle, rocking and weaving their bikes while
yanking on the handlebars when they work very, very hard.
The Vendetta is a little different.
It too responds well to 'bridging', rocking, weaving and handlebar input under power.
Unlike the U.C.I. bikes, the mighty V can be steered with the legs, so narrow bars can be accommodated.
Rock and weave in time with your all-out pedal strokes and try 'bridging' up off your rear end.
Chances are, when you've mastered the full potential of your V's performance envelope, you'll need your grin surgically removed.

 

[LarryOz]

Chances are, when you've mastered the full potential of your V's performance envelope, you'll need your grin surgically removed

That would be nice, but I doubt if I have enough "years" left to master the "full potential"! There are just soooooo many variations of things to try.
That won't stop me though - I love to experiment and test as you well know...

 

[RojoRacing]

Ok so just concerning the rear wheel on the Vendetta what would be the best setup if starting front scratch? Last year for the 24hr I borrowed Maria's disk wheel which is a solid construction so it's honeycomb foam construction with no spokes and is completely flat on both side. Some web surfing months ago led me to believe flat solid construction wheels my not be the most area design and are supposed to be heavier then other options. Since almost no one make disk front wheels I was looking at Catalyst wheel covers fitted onto a custom wheelset based on a lightweight carbon rim. I have the option of choosing any rim depth to use with the covers so what would you guys think is best? shallow 25-30mm rim with covers or deeper 60-80mm rim with covers? I just sent Catalyst an email with these and a few other questions so now I wait for a reply.

Another reason I'm looking at a new wheel over borrowing Maria's again is the possibility of using wider tires to absorb some of the chattery road found on the long back stretch of that race course. We're going to destroy the 500 mile mark this year and come home with a decisive victory.

 

[RojoRacing]

Just a gentle little reminder... powerful U.C.I. sprinters get up out of the saddle, rocking and weaving their bikes while
yanking on the handlebars when they work very, very hard.
The Vendetta is a little different.
It too responds well to 'bridging', rocking, weaving and handlebar input under power.
Unlike the U.C.I. bikes, the mighty V can be steered with the legs, so narrow bars can be accommodated.
Rock and weave in time with your all-out pedal strokes and try 'bridging' up off your rear end.
Chances are, when you've mastered the full potential of your V's performance envelope, you'll need your grin surgically removed.

In the last hour of last years 24hr race they move us from the 18 mile loop to a smaller 4 miles loop. This means all 300 riders get compressed onto that smaller loop so your always passing someone. I was trying to chase down 3rd overall but with no idea how far ahead he was all I could do was give it everything I had. In those final smaller 12 minute laps I was over 30 seconds faster then the next solo with only one team rider getting a faster lap by a mere 3 seconds. All that speed came from me sprinting off every corner up to over 30mph then relaxing slightly down the straits when I ran out of cadence in my tall gear. I was flying passed rider so quickly it felt like I had electric assist. I can't say how much weaving was going on but each pedal stroke felt like I was in the leg press machine pumping out heavy reps. I still like the feeling of DF out of the saddle sprinting with you whole upper body but flying passed so many riders in the dark with their light shining and the stars glowing over head made it feel like I was heading into starwars warp speed territory.

 

[ratz]

Ok so just concerning the rear wheel on the Vendetta what would be the best setup if starting front scratch? Last year for the 24hr I borrowed Maria's disk wheel which is a solid construction so it's honeycomb foam construction with no spokes and is completely flat on both side. Some web surfing months ago led me to believe flat solid construction wheels my not be the most area design and are supposed to be heavier then other options. Since almost no one make disk front wheels I was looking at Catalyst wheel covers fitted onto a custom wheelset based on a lightweight carbon rim. I have the option of choosing any rim depth to use with the covers so what would you guys think is best? shallow 25-30mm rim with covers or deeper 60-80mm rim with covers? I just sent Catalyst an email with these and a few other questions so now I wait for a reply.

Another reason I'm looking at a new wheel over borrowing Maria's again is the possibility of using wider tires to absorb some of the chattery road found on the long back stretch of that race course. We're going to destroy the 500 mile mark this year and come home with a decisive victory.

They (catalyst) have a bit of a challenge getting the dishing right when getting covers for a front wheel. I have one; and it's just not quite perfect but you can get it settled on with a little work and some electrical tape. Mount on a 40-60mm rim is about the easiest; as you got more tire area to soak up errors in the dishing. Once they are mounted they are a lot more quite than the ones from wheel builder.

 

[MrSteve]

RojoRacing is way faster than I ever used to be, so what seems fast to me probably has very little to do with
what is actually fast in the real world.

Here's my input on fast wheels, which matches LarryOz carefully measured experience....

One day while poking around a local bike store, I saw a customers' bike set up for T.T., in for a tuneup and
on the back of his bike was a solid wheel. Honeycomb and carbon, very light.
Impressive.
I was impressed.
Now, the Aerodynamic advantages of a dish/lens cross section wheel and a narrow flat -no shape, no Reynolds number- wheel are:

-Flat solid wheels have minimum frontal area and therefore less drag... assuming that there is zero wind. If there is any crosswind,
a flat wheel will generate a large amount of turbulence as the slipstream separates off the large, flat surfaces. Turbulence = drag.

-Wheels with some shape to them, like wheel covers or a purpose-built T.T. wheel with an aerodynamic-friendly shape to them
will have more frontal area and a bit more drag than a solid wheel has in calm air. If there is any crosswind, curvy covered wheels
will keep the air attached, laminar, longer at greater angles of attack before the air separates and turbulence is created.
As a bonus, in quartering tail winds, these shapes will generate lift and help push the bike for free speed.

So, If I were racing for glory and for real and I had the luxury of choosing which wheels to run?
Outside in the real world, my pick would be wheel covers with carefully taped seams.
My second choice would be to run some slick carbon tri-spoked open wheels for blustery and gusty days.

On indoor velodromes or on absolutely calm days, the solid wheel with the flat parallel sides.

 

[LarryOz]

OK,
I just got my Pro Ones mounted without tubes on my 86mm CF wheels! But I did not do it - haha!
I took them to my LBS last week!
Of course it took them a whole week to do it! They had to use 4 layers of rim tape and band the tire on the outside before they could get them on.
$46 well spent at this point.
Supposed to be 70 tomorrow, so I might head out to the track after work to try then out!
Results to follow!

 

[trplay]

OK,
I took them to my LBS last week!
Of course it took them a whole week to do it! They had to use 4 layers of rim tape and band the tire on the outside before they could get them on.

Something just doesn't sound right.

 

[ratz]

Something just doesn't sound right.

Must be rim design; I mounted 4 of them this weekend; and 2 of those were remounts because I need to put in more reasonable length values. In each case it took 2 full blast from the bontrager pump to get them to fully seat but then in each case the mount was solid. fire three I dry mounted and the last one I wet mounted with equal success although a little messier with the last one.

 

[trplay]

OK,
I just got my Pro Ones mounted without tubes on my 86mm CF wheels!
Supposed to be 70 tomorrow, so I might head out to the track after work to try then out!
Results to follow!

Well Larry --still waiting?

 

[LarryOz]

Well Larry --still waiting?

yeah - me too - I'm still waiting - weather bad, wind worse, My life is so full of other stuff... frustrating to say the least.
today it's about 60, but windy, windy, windy. Had to test stuff and get a good result - even then, I'm might just go our and ride around.. .we'll see.!

 

[DavidCH]

I saw this on the BBC News App and thought you should see it:
How graphene could make tyres stronger and lighter

Why adding graphene to bicycle tyres makes them stronger and lighter with more grip

Bicycle tyre manufacturer Vittoria has added graphene to its tyres to improve their puncture resistance.

 

[BentAero]

Larry, I wonder if you can get a disc brake with this wheel? I have read a number of reports that rim brakes and carbon wheels have an issue with long down hills.

If you do decide to use rim brakes with carbon wheels; its better to just jab the brakes now and then, instead of keeping them engaged.

The heat can be enough to damage the rim and the tire.

David,
Just tell them what hubs you want when you order. They'll make them pretty much however you want. You gain safe, braking power with discs, but at the expense of additional aero drag.

 

[Steve Short]

I cringe a little every time I see a Cruzbike with a radially spoked rear wheel. The DF rider in me just can't adjust.

 

[DavidCH]

expense of additional aero drag.

I can see your aero drag is more than mine... What is that bag you have underneath the seat? I am looking for a bigger bag

I also can't see any magnets on your spokes or rims.... How do you know if you are breaking the speed limit?

 

[RojoRacing]

Ok so after some thought and reading about the recommended important of your rims needing to be slightly wider then your tires I'm about to pull the trigger on a set of wheels that should allow me to run 25mm tires to their maximum efficiency. Really my main focus right now is to get some 25mm tires on my bike to soak up a bit of the chip seal roads we have out here. My current Reynolds are 15mm inner and 21mm outer width so even the 23mm conti 4000's I have on there look a bit balloonish. Also my Reynolds are 66mm deep rims and the front wheel has caught gusts of wind inside the complex canyon descents when I'm pushing 40+ mph and it's nearly sent me off the road.

What I'm looking at are a set of wheels from www.asiancyclexpress.com who are similar to Light Bicycle but ACE seems to kept up better with the current wider aero theme in the road bike industry. They also have wheelset using DT 240s hubs and CX-Ray spokes for $900 to your door. I'm thinking 33mm front wheel for better control in the high winds I experience in the mountains plus it's save a few grams for those 20,000' climbing days. I'll go with a 55mm deep rear wheel because it'll be easier to pair wheel covers to for the 24hr race later this year. Here is a link to the exact wheelset page and a snippit pic of the rims profile. Let me know what you guys think of this direction.

http://www.asiancyclexpress.com/55m...ubs-road-carbon-wheelset-240s-55c-w#info_tabs

 

[ratz]

We are running 41x62 here for the jet stream winds; so 33x55 sounds very reasonable; Ours are 25mm and worked with the 25mm tires at least until the tire stretch; so 28mm wide should give you room to play.

Those wheels are a lot better documented that a lot we've seen come through here.

If you decide to go tubeless get the Schwable values; that have a special waster and nut to keep the value firmly against the carbon without damaging them. (yet another thing I have to go photograph)..

 

[RojoRacing]

We are running 41x62 here for the jet stream winds; so 33x55 sounds very reasonable; Ours are 25mm and worked with the 25mm tires at least until the tire stretch; so 28mm wide should give you room to play.

Those wheels are a lot better documented that a lot we've seen come through here.

If you decide to go tubeless get the Schwable values; that have a special waster and nut to keep the value firmly against the carbon without damaging them. (yet another thing I have to go photograph)..

What your looking for are Speed Evolution Valves and extenders which have those same features, come on like 9 colors and are from a small time mtb guy in socal who I race against. I like to support the little guys especially when they can go bar to bar with me in the 12hr endurance races. In the last 12hr I raced solo and Him and his wife raced duo and we passed each other each lap for the first 9 hrs, he was faster then me by 1 min each lap and I was faster then his wife by 1 min. Trying to catch her each lap and trying to keep him from catching me each lap was the highlight of that race so yeah I'm going to support them.

http://speed-evolution.com/