How I spent my Summer Vacation (an ongoing vendetta saga)

[ratz]

I haven't been able to upload photos for forums posts for a couple of days. So I put this post up over at BROL with the photos. I'll add the photos here when the forum is fixed.

http://www.bentrideronline.com/messageboard/showthread.php?p=1229976#poststop

First thing I noticed was that the Vendetta Box felt like it weighs less than the front fork of my Silvio 2.

The Vendetta Assembly requires a lot less parts than the Silvio for the Frame. After cutting about 4 inches from the head rest bars and 2 inches from the boom; the frame went together really quickly. Everything I learned about the Silvio applied to the Vendetta, and that made for an uneventful setup.

I moved the wheels from the Silvio on over the the Vendetta so that I can do some good comparative riding. I replaced the stock handlebar with an Origin8 Gary Bar that I scored from ebay. To make the bars work on the Vendetta, I cut 6 cm off the ends of the bars using a pipe cutter. Then I prepped the bars for Jagwire Link Elites. (I'm completely sold on that cabling; it's hard to do your first one then it's easy. I have not had to adjust any cables on either Silvio after 800+ miles, the housing works as advertised).

It took about 12 hours to assemble and test everything. I used the same components all around that I used on the Silvio 2 build with the main change being brifters and drops. The Vendetta bars are low enough for my shoulder and the drops seem to work well. I did choose to mount the rear brake at the higher TT brake position so that I would have room in the underneath triangle to put a saddle bag for supplies and tools for long rides. I again went with a Giant brand Aero Bottle for the boom and a removable A.D.E.M. Carbon Seat Cage Mount Bracket for my extended trip water bottles.

Since I plan to ride this long distances I was playing around with different ways to carry a lot of water. The showerpass I use on the Silvio 2, does not fit on the Vendetta. In the end I decided to mount a A.D.E.M. water bottle carbon seat bracket using Velcro. I really like the results and I can easily get to the bottles when riding; and they can be removed during the cool season or for short rides.

For a little fun I mixed in the left over gold links from the the Silvo build with the Silver links I got for the Vendetta; the result blends in with the bike and tends to disappear when viewed from the distance.

So I guess the important question is how does it ride? That's Easy..... OMG it is fast. Without having anything dialed in the bike is easily 4-5 mph faster than my Silvio with the exact same components; (Sans the BB which is an RWC on the Vendetta). The Bike is very light compared to the Silvo 2.0. I'll get the scales out this weekend and weigh them. It also climbs like a goat; I ran my short but steep test hill and the Vendetta walked up it in 52/28 where the Silvio is an out of breath ride in 36/32.

Other observations. The Finish and Polish on the Vendetta is one class higher than the Silvio 2.x Now the Silvio is no Slouch but when you put a Vendetta together it's obvious the love and attention the frame got in design and manufacturing. I think the Silvio quality is awesome; the Vendetta is just Premier and it shows.

I only have 1 ride in and it was 8 miles of debug. But I can pretty safely guess that the Vendetta will be my go fast Solo ride bike; and the Silvio will be my Social / ride with Mrs. Ratz bike.

Daughter 2 of 5 has already laid claim to my Silvio. I was still building the Vendetta when she yelled "DIBS!!!!"

 

[Eric Winn]

Told ya so  
Do at least 70

Told ya so

Do at least 70 miles or more with that plate under your back and I suspect you will find it won't feel as good as the short rides.

-Eric

 

[Ivan]

Stop it Ratz! Just stop

Stop it Ratz! Just stop that!!

Eric, are you referring to the lack of rear suspension on the V?

 

[Eric Winn]

Body and cushions conform to seat shape more on longer rides

Ivan said:

Eric, are you referring to the lack of rear suspension on the V?

Nope, just that your body and seat cushions will conform more to the underlying seat shape the longer the distance. So what feels OK on a short ride may end up really bugging you when you start piling on more miles in one go.

To be more specific, I was referring to the black rectangular bottle carrier frame plate draped over the seat but under the cushions in Bob's first photo in this post on BROL. I think it is going to end up feeling painful the longer you are on the seat.


-Eric

 

[ratz]

If one is good two is better.


I had an evening to tinker and I found a good way to hang two TopPeak Medium Wedge Bags (The bag Ivan used) to the head rest of the Vendetta or Silvio by building on my water bottle setup. The results are excellent. They worked well on a 60 miler today. Both bags sit behind the head and under the shoulders so they are out of the air flow. I can reach into them if I absolutely have to while riding. Although that wouldn't be a regulars action until my balance on the Vendetta equals what I can do on the Silvio. The right hand one hold the tools and spares; the left hand one; has phone batteries and snacks; Plenty of storage for a self supported Century Ride.

I accomplished the setup by cross connecting the long hanging straps of the two bags and by running them over the top of the "Arms" of the bottle cage mounts.

1. The blue lines trace the path of top straps that start near the head. Which bottom on to connect to is obvious because it's the only one that will reach.

2. The red lines trace the path of the top straps that start near the rear side by the cages.

3. The green is the Seat post straps that I interconnected at the base bars of the headrest.


Ivan - I got 30 Personal Time records on the Vendetta today; I was not even trying; there was soo much traffic on the trail section of the ride; my computer decided to record that as 44 laps. So that means I decelerated to near zero 40+ times. Fortunately the Vendetta accelerates very fast; my knees will likely need a day off.

 

[super slim]

Ratz,
    A very neat storage

Ratz,
A very neat storage solution!!!
AND good photos!!

?Super Slim

 

[Ivan]

Hey! Good solution. I use the

Hey! Good solution. I use the same Topeak CageMount on my Brompton bike and it has been great. You have 2 of them and looks like you cut the headrest cushion fabric to make it neat.

Since the position of your wedge bags is good, perhaps a feed bag may work there?? I never considered that location before...would seem to be reachable while riding one handed.

Note: I actually use the LARGE Topeak wedge bag as that fits under Silvio and still clears the tyres. I think it is almost as big as 2 of those medium bags (which I also have). Keeping tools and tubes inside the frame really frees up bag space for snacks, phone and other stuff!

 

[ratz]

Oh yeah large. forgot

I forgot you had a large; that's what I am using on the Silvio too; I had both sizes on hand, because we used the Mediums' on the Quest for tire repair supplies. If you wanted to use two Large ones they might be a tighter fit. They might have to be squished on the front edge and if they touch the shoulders which could be bothersome.

This orientation was a complete flier. I was just staring at the bag wondering how it could fit with the tire being so close. Then it just came to me to do two of them sideways. When I did it; the clouds parted and the sun started to shine; really shocked me how well they fit like this.

The mediums are 60 to 80 cubic inches.
The large are 90-120 cubic inches.

I've always run with the Silvo large bag not expanded at 90 ci. So the two medium feel spacious at 120 total ci; and if I unzip and expand them they really don't take up much more space (they just get taller) but yield 160 ci. Pretty sure I can get a rain coat into one of them.

Note: I'm still Tubeless so my emergency tube is stash down inside the hydro formed frame. That saves me a large amount of space in the bag.


My right one has; pump, tire irons; multi tool; patch kit; co2 inflator and road rash kit.
My left one has phone (which double as bike computer) solar battery; cables; snacks, Gels and energy bars.

With a three bottle config I usually running one plain water; one electrolytes, and the 3rd is water or a fizzy sodium drink if it's really hot out.

You could easily use it for a feed bag; I actually took the cell phone out while riding on the MUP; to silence the annoying beep; and then put it back in and zipped it up. Not a maneuver I would do in traffic; but for eating on a long ride it should work just fine.

I did indeed cut the fabric; I mounted the bases then stretched the fabric over them; a tiny cut with a scissors and then stretched it over the base of the mounts. Then reattached the arms and the bottle cages. In Person it looks like It's made to be that way.

There's actually space between both bags 2x3x5 and you can get to the little pocket on the headset cover so more could be stashed there, put some sticky back velcro on top of the top peak mounting arms; and the bottom of a pouch and something would sit in there very nicely

 

[ratz]

Better Angles on hydration

More angles and photos for Kim on the water bottle setup.

 

[Eric Winn]

I'm kind of digging this last

I'm kind of digging this last rig. Looks kind of like Jim Parker may have followed your lead on his hot weather ride rig too.

-Eric

 

[LarryOz]

speed gain from Silvio to Vendetta

Bob,
On your initial post on this thread (back on 7/07), you stated:
"Without having anything dialed in the bike is easily 4-5 mph faster than my Silvio with the exact same components."
Are you still seeing those numbers, even when switching back and forth between the 2 bikes? Do you do that now, or just exclusively ride the V?
Reading this almost makes me droll! So, If I can ride a 40K at 24 mph avg., then maybe at 28-29mph on the V? Almost seems unbelievable! I can't wait to really get one, built it up and try it now!

Note:
When I rode Maria's V in that race couple weeks ago (and of course it did not fit me very well), I just couldn't see that much difference. Although, I did seem to notice about a 10 bpm or so reduction in my heart rate to maintain similar speed, so I guess you could say it was faster, I just didn't feel sure enough to push it hard. Plus, I was so tentative when turning, and eating and drinking. It was definitely squirlly to me to ride, and it was probably wasn't the best decision to just hop on it during a race like that. Oh well.
(I am hopefully showing my BMW this weekend to someone that seems interested. A V will be the first thing I order with the cash!)
....
Anyone else have speed gain stories when moving from a Silvio 2.? to the V?
Rick, you did, right.
Steve? (of course you have your Silvetta - how does that compare, as I think your seat angle actual went from 28 to 30, correct?
I can't think of anyone else at this point

 

[Rick Youngblood]

Larry here are 2 exact rides

Larry here are 2 exact rides I did on V and S.

When I did the ride S, my legs were in well and healthy.

When I did the V ride, my legs were on up side of mending, still a decent amount of pain when I pushed hard, like climbing.

Strava shows my top speed wrong. Silvio was 44.2 mph and Vendetta was 48.4 mph.

here are the strava rides to compare:

http://www.strava.com/activities/189407432 on Vendetta

http://www.strava.com/activities/155948799 on Silvio

This is not a fair comparison due to my legs injuries. But does show with injury Vendetta was faster overall.

I will give my 2 cents later today, but I gotta run for now.

 

[Rick Youngblood]

... In continuation to my

... In continuation to my above post # 12.

The Vendetta ride I did above had some pretty extreme side wind gust (20 mphs) that caused me to do a lot of downhill braking, scuffing off speed. If not for that, I could have come down the mountain much faster. This is were I could tell a big difference between the S and V. The V being much more aero sliced through the air so much I had my hands full of brake. It just picks up speed so fast. This was one of my most hair raising/exhilarating rides ever. And my fastest all time top speed, I was hoping to see 50 mph this time, but man-o-man did 48.4 mph feel scary-good.

So, makes me wonder what could have been with healthy legs and none of the nasty side winds.

Also my overall average speed was 1 mph faster on the Vendetta.

So in summery, I feel like I did less work to go one mph faster on the V than I did on the S. Again to me all about efficiency. And the V has proved that to me.

Also, one other thing I would like to mention. The Vendetta's ride is pretty good. I ride some very rough roads, and it's not bad at all. So at this point if I could only own one of these 2 bikes to do all of the type of riding I do, I would choose the Vendetta.

I agree with bob on the sprinting, that the Vendetta is faster, stiffer, lighter, and accelerates faster. You can hit rollers faster, meaning you will go up them faster and come down faster, set up for the next one.

 

[LarryOz]

Thanks for all this input -

Thanks for all this input - you guys are great!
Now just waiting for the Beamer to sell!

 

[ratz]

Fair question Larry.The

Fair question Larry.

The Vendetta in a sprint segment of any length is indeed about 4-5 mph faster. I don't do a lot of sprinting, but I've got a few of those that I use from time to time. The stiff frame just lets you get more power to the road. I've been looking at power more than speed and cadence lately, but in an all out effort test; that is a fair number. On what we call a "throw-up" effort on both bikes, on a local roller course we ride, I can pull 30-32mph on the Silvio and hold it, on the Vendetta it's 35-37mph. Now give me a flat track and I could give you a true measure sans the plus and minus of the roller. ((I'm trying to get the guys at the Blaine velodome to let me do some power testing))

Now to total ride averages which you are referring to, those are much harder to gage. I have to factor in that I've only got 300 miles in on the Vendetta so far. We have lots of hills in the area, and the wind blows a lot. Throw in the last couple week long stretches of rain and I'm not as fit as I was when the Silvio was the primary bike.

I have started to use Veloviewer.com to aggregate data from Strava. In there I have some old data from my DF bike during the early days of GPS. I back loaded that into Strava for benchmarks. What I have for analysis is limited but interesting.

These are complete rides, door to door, stop signs, traffic lights, photo breaks, nature breaks, etc. As you can see for non racing leisure miles the Vendetta is only 0.5 mph faster. You can see my old Trek5500 listed in there with nearly same average speed, but I was in far better shape back then. I wish I had more historical data in a format I could load; these were the only gpx files I had (for this geographic area). There was far more data trapped in the map my ride service that I can't export.

Now the interesting part is I've been the rider on those rides and I know how hard I was working. All of the rides on the V have been leisurely as I'm dialing in the bike. If you asked me in person I would tell you I have been sand bagging it. My wattages have been 50 watts or so lower that my 6 month average, so I know I have be lolly gaging my efforts for real. Yet, the Vendetta is beating the Silvio and is slowly stealing away all the KOM, PRs and it's doing it with far fewer rides.

Next week if the weather holds I will get some interesting feedback. I will be visiting the city where I lived for 40+ years. I have ridden 1000's of miles on those flat roads over many years, enough that I can close my eyes and picture the turns on entire routes. I am taking the Vendetta along and I am going to squeeze in a couple rides with old friends on those Flats and see what kinds of times I can get.

So is it faster? Yes it's faster. How much? That's subjective and I need more data; but given both bikes I'm not grabbing the S for a race. Next year the S is getting Ivan like fenders and it's going to be my rainy day bike otherwise I don't think it will get a lot of miles.

Edited: Smaller graphic and a recent long leisure ride added:

 

[ratz]

Aero...

Rick,

To your comment about side winds. Interestingly, so far I find that the Vendetta with the 50mm Aero rims handles the cross winds equal to or better than the Silvio with traditional RIMs. I was not expecting that, Jim suggest to me that it would be the case but I had to try it and see. So we road several days on both bikes with 20mph winds gusty to 35mph and the Vendetta was no harder to handle than the Silvio. I think I will be discing the back wheel for next year; at which point it will be worse and that will give me a reason to ride the Silvio on windy days.

 

[Rick Youngblood]

...so far I find that the

...so far I find that the Vendetta with the 50mm Aero rims handles the cross winds equal to or better than the Silvio with traditional RIMs

In a way this might make sense due to the fact the Vendetta has a lesser side profile height than the Silvio, and cuts through the air better. I would suppose or guess perhaps with standard rims it would handle even better. But also thinking, if with 50mm rims on the vendetta is tolerable in those kinds of winds, then personally, I would not change them out.

Also wondering with a rear disc like Jim posted, which just looks fast not moving - would that be tolerable in those conditions?

Had 50mm on my Metabike, and I got to tell you, I got pretty "shaken up" when blasted from the side. It was tolerable, I think, but I'm not so sure on that fast down hill ride I did the other day coming off the mountain, running in the 40's and getting side blasted - that was just down right scary, I'm still shaking when I think about it.

 

[Lief]

one caveat

Larry - I'm sure you know this but it bears repeating.

Wind resistance increases with speed - so just because Ratz said he was 4-5mph faster on his V than his S doesn't mean that your 24mph effort on your S will be 28-29mph on your V.

This page has some awesome, plain-language explanations.
http://www.exploratorium.edu/cycling/aerodynamics1.html

Caveat aside - the Vendetta II is very, very fast.
I haven't got a Silvio II comparison just the Silvio I - but it's profound at the 20ish mph effort.
180W on my Silvio I is almost dead-on 20mph.
180W on the Vendetta II is a bit more than 23.5mph.

I really like to sprint - and I can tell you don't need any more stimulus but WOWIE the Vendetta picks up speed fast.
On my commute there are lots of short sections between lights so I get a fair amount of practice. My knee is getting better, just in time for the weather to change.

Maybe a cold dry day in late fall or Dec/Jan I'll see if I can hit the velodrome near me as well.
Keep putting stuff on Strava/TrainingPeaks/VeloViewer/etc - measure measure measure - soon enough we'll have enough data to prove what we can all "subjectively" feel.

PS
My Silvio 1.0 feels like a wedgie now, it's so upright comparitively.
It's going to be a long Seattle winter spent staring at that Vendetta.

Maybe my Xmas present will have to be an indoor trainer.

 

[ratz]

Hydration - Dialed in

Been slowly working on hydration for the Vendetta rides. The showerpass system setup on our Silvio really convinced me that I would prefer to drink out of a hose based system. Since the showerpass unit doesn't fit on the Vendetta I had to keep refining it. I've finally got it dialed. Best part of this setup is I can switch back to traditional bottles if I like.

File inserts not working again; so here's a link to the annotated photo. It looks cluttered from this angle but it's all sitting well behind my head and the storage bags which line up with my shoulders.

Edited: to put the picture inline now that the forum is working again.

 

[ratz]

Extended Hydration

So a little something to show from the weekend. Spent two days with the basement in bike shop mode. The majority of what I was up to isn't ready to share yet. But I did complete one side project.

For rides over 50 miles last year I would have to stop for water refilling. So I wanted to expand my carrying capacity without compromising my aero that much. So while installing the new seat on the Vendetta I tackled that too. I should be be able to do 90-110 now without having to hit the convenience store. This will be great as I can spend more time out on the milk roads and less time ducking into the small towns along the way.

So here we go.

Add the new carbon seat with the Official Cruzbike water bottle positions.

Select a resonable length bolt and use washer to distribute load.

Install Left side Aero bottle holder.

Install Right side Aero bottle holder.

Insert Left and right bottles

Yes these are Giant brand bottle; I need to redo the blackout which faded last summer. Ten seconds with a sharpie. but I got tired.

Wahla 5 bottle all out of the airstream and I can mix and match what fluids I'm carrying in each.

Also not the lower triangle is completely empty so I can still install my different size frame packs for food depending on the ride and route.

This was a nice re-use effort. Those that have followed the other builds will recognize those bottles as the ones we used on the Silvio booms last year. Now that we've add the 55mm extensions to the Silvios those bottles were workable but tight; so we decided to pull them and have reused them here.

While working on this installation I did pause and use the carbon seat as a template to add matching holes to the Silvio Seats. On the Silvios we installed Lenzye Flow cages on the left, for the secondary water supply on those bikes. On the right side I mounted our "up-stand" carry brackets. That worked equally well; but no photos of that for now; least I tip my hand on the other things I'm working on that aren't done. I would have preferred water on the right side to avoid reaching into traffic lanes for the bottle; but the right side has a brake interference with the cages and bottle we use; so left it was and the results seem good.

I must say these locations are not where I would have thought to shoot the holes, but after working with them it sure seems like the logically clear/correct location; perhaps dress makers template is in order for people with legacy seats. I wonder how we could make that?

No violation of the 3 laws on these photos, just time and the rotation and re-allocation of existing equipment. Of course that doesn't mean I didn't violate the laws in the last week or two, but alas I don't think I'll have that done until the middle of next month.