Initial Conclusions on the Silvio 2.x Cockpit for distance riding

ratz

Wielder of the Rubber Mallet
I thought I should take a minute to summarize what I believe I have learned in my project to set up our Silvio cockpits over in the carbon handlebar thread. I showed a lot of what we tested, including a lot of the failures that Charles thought would be interesting, but I did not at any point summarize what we where learning and why we were doing it. Since we did about over 100 hours worth of tinkering I thought I should share the thoughts and opinions that have formed in my head during the process as I tried to build on what others have done before me. I've put our background / driving needs at the end of this message. Those should be considered as they affect our bias.

We have had to draw all our conclusions on the trainer and stationary stands. Having ridden many miles for many years gives some confidence to my ability to figure out what is going to work on the road and what is not. But the road will be the true test of everything. Some might think that drawing conclusions at this point is foolish since it hasn't be road tested. If you are right I will come back and tell you that; but it's the dead of the winter here; and this work will save 100 hours of lost riding time by doing it now. These are initial preliminary findings, there is also no need to hold back this information until we road test it; as it may be of value to many other people in it's current form. We have had two days with dry road and +25F temperatures. Four of the configurations hit the road on those two days; that answered many of the questions that remained and guided the final efforts and caused some ideas to be abandoned without further investigation.

So our Seven key thoughts about the Silvio 2.0 stock and modified cockpit.

(A) Cruzbike drop bars are fine. If your riding is: Casual weekend rider that doesn't care about arms wide position. Riders going 20-35 miles, Commuters navigating in traffic, Rider that would not get an alergic reaction to riding without full kit. Your general recreation riders. These would include my kids that are < 16 years old. Basically people that ride for fun, but like to ride in style and zip along. People that would never install a computer on their bike to track telemetry. Basically it's clear that stock bars try to solve a number of ergo problems with a one size fits all approach. I think they hit the mark for 60-70% of the audience.

(A Prime) The Silvio 2.x will attract a new audience for which they are not optimal and might actually be disappointing.

(B) Without an extension the boom angle coupled with the new lower seat angle does not work with any of the traditional road bike straight bar solutions. A straight bar induces both a sharp out and a forward/downward bend at the wrist to operate brifters with strength. This would be tolerable for short periods, but on a ride of any length that wrist strain would become a problem for comfort and potential injury. This situation can be mitigated by installing the bars at a steep angle, but that has other trade offs and doesn't completely remove the wrist problem. There appears to exist a Vendetta drop bars that some people have that has a different geometry and should probably be offered for the Silvio as an option. I have only heard this bar mentioned more details would be needed.

(C) The minimum width for any Silvio 2 handle bars is probably 440mm. Meanwhile 460mm, 480, and 500mm are likely necessary as options. This means that most solutions will quickly become custom. 440mm is common on stock bars, 460mm is more rare, and larger is unheard of. A measurement should be devised to help people pick the correct width. 460mm will likely be the most common size.

(D) To solve the boom/seat angle discrepancy. A 50-60mm extension which doesn't currently exist can be used to bring the boom down enough to use road drop bars without inducing the wrist bend and leave the bars in a position that has maximum flexibility, at the same time this doesn't close down the cockpit so much that a non-slim rider can't comfortably mount and dismount the bike. This might most optimally be paired with the Vendetta dropbars that might still exist

(E) A 100 mm extension can be used by shorter people with the trade off being you get a jet plane cockpit that requires a very slight build; 36in waist or slimmer in order to get in an out of the cockpit.

(F) A traditional boom angle + bullhorns with a 60mm drop can be used to get the same affect as a 50-60mm extension. This allows for a more natural arm angle and no wrist bend; but has the advantage of not closing the cockpit. Riders with an "aero belly"/"drill Sergeant build" would find this optimal.

(G) a 50-60mm extension + bullhorns with a 40-60mm drop or the Vendetta drop bars Closes the cockpit raises the feet and getting the arms into a nice and ergo position. This would make the Ivan position available to those those don't share his slim build.

Note: I excluded the cruzbike bull horns from our testing because the cost savings allowed the funding of the other tests we did. The cruzbike bull horns do not have a "drop" to them so it should be simple to deduce how they work related to the above comments. They likely will work good for taller riders. In any case John and company can simply compare them to the above results and extend the conclusions.

Conclusions/Implications:

1) Make a 50-60mm extension available for sale.
2) Make the mythical Vendetta drop bars available to Silvio 2.x buyers. Or create a drop bar with a 60mm drop and less outward flare.
3) Create a version of the Cruzbike bullhorns with a 60mm drop in the shoulder.
4) Create some simple sizing guide lines to help people pick the right combinations.

Other notes and things of Personal bias:
1) Redesign the brakes on the Cruzbike bullhorn so they don't require moving the hands and are not reversed.
2) Examine further a bullhorn that uses a brifter. (We will comment more on how that work out for us.)



The background

Understand, that the goal of the entire effort was to get an optimal setup of the Silvio 2 for what we consider to be casual ultra-cycling; which entails weekly rides of 80-100 miles; and nightly rides that are 35-50 mile sprints. These are unsupported rides with a time limit of <= 6 hours for the long ones which means holding average speeds of 17+ and being ultra light but self sufficient. The terrain we are building for is moderate, 100 miles equals 3500-4000ft of climbing.

Like any riding optimizing for specialized riding; stock parts usually get replaced. So it was no surprise that the stock Silvio was going to need some attention. That's not a flaw in the bike; that's a need of the goal.

I am a short 5'10" and my wife is a tall 5'7" we aren't heavy but we aren't petite people as we both have stronger than average legs for our size. For me this means I need a wide cockpit for my size; and my wife needs a long cockpit because of her leg geometry with a thigh that is almost 2x her calf in length. We are 3 inch separated in height and 1 in on the x-seam. I having stood next to a lot of bikers over the years, we are about as average as average gets you wouldn't pick us out as the "Skinny" rider, nor the "hefty" rider we just sort of blend into the crowd and go un-noticed. Daughter is a very skinny 5'8" when she's home from school we'll throw her on the bikes and see if any of the fit is bad for her.

Thank you to all the people that have shared what they have done with their bikes. Much of this was guided and stolen from what others know. Without that open sharing and all the photos available; I'm pretty sure we wouldn't have under taken the project to build on what's been done before.


 

scabinetguy

Well-Known Member
Vendetta bars

Here's a photo of my girlfriends Silio 1.5 with Vendetta bars and a 40mm extension. The Vendetta bars have a real nice bend for the shifters and flare at the end for more leg room. They are Origin8 PRO PULSION GARY-2. Available in 25.4 and 31.8. $38.00
 

ratz

Wielder of the Rubber Mallet
Didn't see those sizes

That's interesting I never found thosein the 31.8 only the 25.4's. I had looked at those briefly and the Origin 8 Tiki bars might be able to be mounted frontward or backwards. In the end I skip both to avoid having to shim the bar. I wonder if the 31.8 size is discontinued.
 

Jeremy S

Dude
OK Bob, I'll bite... What

OK Bob, I'll bite... What keeps me from going farther than 35 miles with the stock Silvio 2 bars (I already have)? And what keeps me from installing a bike computer (I have not yet)?
 

Jeremy S

Dude
Thanks for explaining,

Thanks for explaining, especially about the wind in your area. I'm sure that even in not-so-windy Massachusetts I'd be more efficient with narrower bars, but as you suggest it just hasn't presented itself as an obvious issue. My general fitness, on the other hand, is an issue. I'm looking forward to beating at that 60 mile barrier you mention this season.

Your bullhorn adaptations (pictured in the carbon handlebar thread) look great, and I look forward to hearing how they do in real-world riding. Wishing you good weather, soon.
 

ratz

Wielder of the Rubber Mallet
Chomp chomp

Ha Jeremy, I suppose that was painting with a broad brush of generalizations there... Sorry about that. That wasn't the spirit of what I was trying to say hopefully that was obvious and you are teasing me. But ok I'll blather on more about it..this will wander because I haven't thought it through ahead of time. If I get lost in the woods someone come get me please......

So personally, I'm not going to ride 50 miles with the stock bars in my cold weather wind breaker or in my biking rain coat, the wide arm positions (I have narrow shoulders) is going to turn those coats into a wind sail and frankly it would cease to be a fun ride really quickly if I'm riding with the air brake deployed. We live in the heart of the North America, Jet Stream, if you live in it you know what I'm talking about. If you don't then you have to imagine that 9mph winds are rare and special days. Typical wind speeds here are 12-22 mph day in and day out all summer long. A buddy of mine can here from D.C. his remark after a week was, when does the wind stop. My response was "never, but when the corn is tall you won't notice it so much". Riding into the wind is hard and I don't want to work that hard so my brain applies that thinking to all things aero. Heck I worry about how much wind my mirrors drag; I need all the advantages I can get. So that sets my bias. If you ride 18mph into a 15mph head wind your aero affect is equal to roughly 30 mph.

I think the Silvio 2.x seat angle is going to attract more aero weenies that might have in the past gone to the Vendetta or stayed away altogether. Very rarely do I get to ride in a pace line these days; but if I can get pace line aero I'm going for it because I need it. I think the P38 is a great bike; but you won't seem riding one around here.

So back to my superficial grouping of 70% of the riders. ..... in my thinking, the person that only wants to ride 35 miles 3 times a week probably isn't going to notice the wind drag that the wide arms are going to create and perhaps they will likely ride at speeds where it doesn't matter or will be strong enough to muscle through it at that distance. If you don't want to go farther or faster do you care? Probably not. Sub 16-17mph are you going to notice the wind? Depends on how much your wind blows.

Now a commuter will ride in the rain, but not too many bike commuters are going to worry about Aero because they are likely carrying cargo; in painers, bags (backpacks on DFs). Ivan has to be the most Aero commuter I've ever seen (which I think is awesome). I suppose someone somewhere is commuting on a TT bike; but cargo is rarely aero; unless you have a trunk; so does the arm position matter? Probably not; it's not the largest contributor to drag at that point.

In the end... I see it as similar to the number of people that ride on the hoods on their DF's all day long and never in the drops. They don't care about Aero and it's not affecting their enjoyment. Since I see roughly 30% of the DF riders out for speed; and 70% out on the hoods putter along obvious to it and not caring; I assume the Silvio will see a similar break down. So lacking scientific numbers I'll run with it; feel free to apply a better breakdown.

Focusing on distance as a function of time available is also interesting. In my experience each user has a "that is easy" threshold and a "it's getting harder tipping point." For me that occurs around 60 miles. Before that point efficiency doesn't matter and I can muscle through it. After that point it starts to compound quickly and efficiency for the duration is the difference between exhausted at 65 and wanting more at 120. Let's assume 1 mph gain in average speed due to aero. At 35 miles, traveling at 19mph that's 1.84 hours of effort. at 20mph that is 1.75hours of effort for net change 5.4 minutes. Not a big deal. at 100 miles that is 5.26 hours and 5 hours or 15.6 minutes less effort; at 120 miles it's 18.6 minutes. If you can eck out at 2mph increase then it's 10.8 minutes, 31.2 minutes and 36.6 minutes. That time starts to add up as a lot of energy saved when you weekly ride totals get north of 250-300 miles. So it matters more the further you ride. If you ride less it matters less so you probably won't care or think about it.

Back to the 35 miles total distance. That simply is a distance frequently find important to other riders. Most anyone will ride with me for 35 if it's more than that a lot people aren't interested, 50 seems to scare a lot of people; and 100 even at an organized century with breaks ever 20/25 miles bothers a lot of people until they do it and realize how easy it truly is. I've seen a few amazingly bad bike geometry on century rides, but those are usually the exception as the distances get longer, however we did get dropped one time by a guy in his 60's on a steel touring bike with front bag between the handle bars; engine still matters; but aero is the friend of the rest of us.


So I just took all those biases and bifurcated my mental grouping at 35 miles.

As to the bike computer, that was meant to say if you don't have a computer on your bike your probably evolved enough to just enjoy riding, and the wide arm position may not bother you; or it's not going to be an impediment to your riding enjoyment; if you aren't monitoring your speed you probably don't care. That's cool, if you do care and your flying along you can just check your speed with each DF you pas because you are still going to be faster than they are; especially the 70% riding on the hood. My daughter has this approach to riding, no computer, she just blows past everyone she rides with; when you catch her at the water stop she just asks what your average speed is; knowing she's going faster. (I did good with that one).

I do know this; if I give Mrs Ratz handlebars that makes her wind drag at 18mph 20% worse than mine; I'm going to be riding shorter distance at slower speeds; or I will face the beating when I get home; so she gets the better wheels and the most areo setup I can muster; and I'll get the benefits of what I setup for her

ok did I make it back out of the woods; not sure; cause that rambled all over the place.



 

ratz

Wielder of the Rubber Mallet
We will cheer you along

I'm with you on that fitness level; this winter has been brutal on us all we hit 23f today but I hear it will be 60 on sunday.... If you want to chase that 60 mile barrier and you have a smart phone; join us on Stava in the recumbent group. We have a great group there that encourages everyone at their goals. Btw, My wimpy beard can assure yours that it will not affect your aero drag in a meaningful way, but it will keep you warmer above 18mph. Perhaps we need a Cruzbike group too.

Sorry had to edit this an add this funny story that will drive home how much our life revolves around the jet stream up here and it affects the way we think.

So I grew up 3 hours north of Chicago in the heart of the Jet stream. When you want to know what the weather is; you look west; the sky will tell you what's coming; and you can usually tell exactly how long before your dryness and sometimes your life is in jeopardy. So after many years of that; I went to college in Florida. Me and my cool Bianchi road bike took off for a ride to test out these new fanged clip on aero bars this was like 1986 or so aero was just coming along. So I ride west on a beautiful Saturday; I'm 40 miles out enjoying flat road's and non existent winds. Finally I decided I needed to turn back to make dinner; I turned the bike east; and was staring straight into the biggest darkest meanest looking Atlantic storm I have seen to this day. Immediately I was like: what? that is impossible weather doesn't travel east to west....then the smart part of my brain put the pieces together. So 40 miles back to school in a 25mph headwind and driving rain. I learned a lot that day and not just that Florida sand + rain equals a lot of BB wear and tear. I learned that even in Florida the land of no wind and no hills, there are days you'll be darn glad you have clip on aero bars on your bike.


Want to know the wind in the U.S. here's a cool tool:

http://hint.fm/wind/
 

Jim Parker

Cruzbike, Inc. Director
Staff member
comparison photos


My preferred handlebar for the Vendetta is the Gary bar from Origin-8 with 5 to 6 cm sawed off the ends and filed down smoothly.
The 31.8mm clamp version of this bar has gotten very hard to find. I like it for the extra reach (I prefer arms more stretched out) and the knee room. Here are some photos for comparison.

Jim
handlebar%20top%20view(1).jpg


handlebar%20sideview(1).jpg
 

trplay

Zen MBB Master
I believe once you road test

I believe once you road test your bikes you will find the aero differences you expect are overstated and that leg clearance during turning and leverage in steering is a more important factor than narrow bars. Time will tell.
 

Eric Winn

Zen MBB Master
Bob, I am thoroughly enjoying

Bob, I am thoroughly enjoying this thread. Lots of good info being discussed here.

Oh, and quit sending your dang wind down to Florida during the Bike Sebring weekend. It was really bad last year. Maybe gusting a bit more during the day this year but thankfully died mostly back down late in the day.

I'm finding my "it's getting harder tipping point." keeps jumping significantly which is kind of fun. If I've been riding/training fairly consistently I'd say mine is more around 130 or so maybe up to 180. If I've been slacking probably more like 80 to 100. Less if I've been totally vegetating for a bit.

Training using Erg mode on my KICKR seems to work well - e.g. set power at 170 watts and hold 25mph or greater for 2 hours without stopping. Seems to have got my 100 mile time way down without really feeling the need to stop for any breaks. I've been totally vegetating since Sebring due to my hand problems until just the other day when I started back but I've only done a couple of 30 minute sessions to start slowly working my way back up. Got cortisone injections in both wrists on 6 Mar and the numbness and tingling in my finger tips that has been there since Sebring seems to be finally diminishing a little.

BTW, my Vendetta drop bars are silver Origin 8 Gary, 31.8 mm clamp, 530mm width.

-Eric
 

BentBierz

Well-Known Member
Hi Eric...other than color,

Hi Eric...other than color, are your silver Gary's the same bar as Jim mentions?
 

BentBierz

Well-Known Member
And of course I would be

And of course I would be remiss if I didn't also thank Ratz for his very detailed posts! Great stuff but I am looking to defy your wide handlebar group parameters by putting my Garmin 800 on the handlebars and riding multiple times far in excess of 35 miles! ;)
 

ratz

Wielder of the Rubber Mallet
Et al.

Eric you get commission on the those wahoo power trainers you sell right? darn good thing it's spring or you might be sneaking one of those into our house. As for the wind; the one advantage is you can play fetch with it; we'd never drive 100 miles out and deposit a car the night before; and then bike to it the next day with a 20 mph tailwind. That would be Strava cheating :) I feel for your wrists Eric I'm heading that direction and only care and caution at the keyboard has saved me so far.

Jim that is a stunning picture comparison, that Origin bar is much more what I would have expected with the bike, this project might not have started if those had been the bars as they look like they would not have had the wrist problem that started me down this path.

TR that might be we'll find out; and it should be fun and educational, and your counterpoint is exactly why I did the brain dump; so those with experience can give me angles to consider. Now the bar change wasn't so much about width as it was about straightening out the arms and reducing bend at the wrists and getting a firm posture that would slice through the wind without unnecessary motion. Width is something I knew we couldn't really measure on the trainer; legs need to fit, but turn impact is an unknown. I know with my setup I run the risk of spearing my knee with brake lever. If I impale myself we'll post the bloody pictures for charles. Now I have been out a couple time I have some idea of what the turns are like and so far I like what I got.

Larry, you and Jeremy had 35+ t-shirts made up didn't you? If you did I want an honorary one. You know you're a closet speed and distance freak and you'll order your quiver right away to make up the extra aero factor.

Any how I ordered my Stages power meter today; they say 4-5 weeks for delivery. By then I should should have road skills and we'll embark on Chung analysis of this thing proper like and let the math answer the aero question by starting with the base bike and working up; to dished wheels. If we want to know the real aero benefits of different things that's the way to find out; ride, measure, analysis repeat. Jim's observation of Maria wheels at sebring really has me wondering. AeroCovers on uber light wheel add no weight for climbing, question is can they handle our winds....beside I need a project to do a carbon fiber dip project and wheelbuilder aero cover so treated could look pretty cool on the Silvio.... sadly they are a tad noisy on rough roads.

 

Jeremy S

Dude
When I got my Silvio I was

When I got my Silvio I was concerned about the stock handlebars because of the sharp backward turn they take when viewed in profile. I think this is what you are commenting on, Bob. It's clearly visible in Jim's second photo (all the bars end up at about the same angle, but the Silvio bars get there via a very abrupt bend). This backward turn requires bending the wrists forward to grip the bar. I was especially worried about this because I have a history of RSI in my wrists, and one thing I've been repeatedly told to do to reduce the problem is to keep my wrists straight.

Most of the build photos I see show the handlebars rotated upward/backward, which straightens out the drop part a bit. I wonder why the bars aren't just bent less, so rotating them shouldn't be necessary. I imagine John has some reason...?

I ended up with a moderate upward rotation of my bars which still requires some forward wrist bend (a compromise to avoid raising my hands too high), but so far I have had no wrist discomfort while riding. So, I've pretty much forgotten about this concern. If I manage to up my mileage this season, I guess I'll see if any issues develop.
 

ak-tux

Zen MBB Master
What about the On-One Midge Bar?

I found some pictures of original WTB, new WTB and a Midge on the mtb forums and thought it would be interesing for those looking for alternat bars. The Midge Bar seems closer in resemblance the Origin 8 bars and is in production in both 25.4 and 31.8 clamp diameters:

(On-One Midge Bar Link)

More comparisons Here and a more detailed one Here.

WTBvsMidge-bars1.JPG

WTBvsMidge-bars2.JPG
WTBvsMidge-bars3.JPG

WTBvsMidge-bars4.JPG


 

BentBierz

Well-Known Member
Soma Junebug?

Has anyone ever used a Soma Junebug on a Silvio or Vendetta? I see a lot of comparisons to the Midge and it is in some other lists for alternative MTB bars. Since I am relatively new to drops, having the specs doesn't tell me as much as seeing pictures or hearing someone elses comments related to the specific application.
 

Rick Youngblood

CarbonCraft Master
Yes, I put a pair on my

Yes, I put a pair on my Silvio 2.

They are very similar to the stock bars, but lighter. I thought they would be much different, but they were not.

I will be posting images of my setup today on my original thread.
 

ratz

Wielder of the Rubber Mallet
The narrow delima....

I promised myself no novels today; but *sigh* maybe tomorrow. Hopefully this hangs together.......forgive the typos; stream of consciousness at lunch. Only time for one edit review....

Hardy,

Over in your Aero and the handlebar post is seems you have setup a counter-point to what I was posting here. It is a well said post. I think you and I are saying much the same thing in many regards, I am responding in this thread because I do not want to divert the clear message you created in the other post nor do I want to hijack the thoughts you clearly laid out over there, while I clarify my intent here.

So if it was meant as a counter-point to my posts let me attempt to clarify the points we agree on because I might have been vague elsewhere and if you are reading me that way others may have too. I always like to move the conversation forward towards clarity, and in this case it is silly to discount real road experience you offered up.

Ok so let's see if I can pull this off.....

Earlier in this thread, I said the stock bars are probably on the mark for 60-70% of the audience. Perhaps it is higher it is just guess. A fair number of people seem to have overlooked that statement and want to assume they if they are in the 70% then I have insulted their riding skills. That was not the intent; it was a list of "or's" and it appears everyone reads point (A) as a list of "and's" my bad, the phrasing needs work. It really was a "if you do this OR this OR this OR think like this... then my thoughts probably doesn't apply to you, and that's cool." In the end it simply means if the ergo works for you then it works for you, do not let me tell you it doesn't.

Since everyone keeps mentioning "Narrow" bars I guess I should focus on that. First I don't think I have ever said that "Narrow" was the goal. Flare and Angle have been my issues all along. I see how the over all message might be heard as "Narrow" is better and perhaps "hyper narrow" is great. Let me assure you that is not my particular point; I find no flaw in the width, but I have a preference for less of it for ergonomic issues and because of some clothing interaction that we tested with a 2800 cubic feet per minute air mover that I use to simulated a 25 mph head wind. (I know nerd.... but if you have it, might as well use it)....

So... as Hardy noted the 100mm extension closes the cockpit too much unless you are tall enough or tiny. Ivan my be on the mark by saying BMI < 25. I do love the lobster bed image that capture what if felt like to us too, we got the 100mm extension for the same wrong reason got the same conclusion, but in our case it lead to some very interesting ideas on what positives we were going to miss out on by not using it. So objectives changed.

To me, hands as wide as the shoulders and no narrower seems by far the most optimal position range. Evenly aligned with the shoulder width is the positioning I believe we see in Ivan's photos and it is the one we were chasing in our efforts. This is one of the reasons I pointed out the minimum width of the bars we were playing with. I was quoting the inside dimension of straight bars. In the case of the non-flared bars, that is the width that the brifters end up at and dictates both hand width and leg clearance. I noticed that Jim and Eric were quoting the "flare" width at the bar end. So that adds confusion since we are all talking different measurements. Better semantics will be required to have good conversation on this topic. Hardy, I think we agree here; but you have less concerns with being wider than the shoulders and see that wider position as a positive. I really do not see that as a difference of opinion just a preference in the minimum inner boundary. Should the "at shoulder width" option turn out to require more practice to achieve proficiency; I'm cool with that.

In all of our testing the over-the-counter bars we found them to lean towards being too narrow and not too wide. Until Jim posted his picture I was ignorant of mountain bike drop bars with a flare. They never entered in the hunt for us because we didn't know about them, never been a MTB guy. Those bars clearly address my "there should be a vendetta like drop bar solution"....So the thread accomplished at least one thing (for those that readyit)... Yeah crowd think. .... Now to the recommended process of selecting bars I am adding the idea that the shoulder width of the rider should be measured and accounted for in the selection process, I do think Cruzbike could provide some guidance here in the future no all customers are going to slog through the forums for info. In some ways I think that shoulder measure is as important as X-seam to getting people a proper bike fit. Ivan's running a narrow at the shouldler arrangement that's probably going to be the inner boundary of what people do for a while; I'll be there with him. Others may be wider as it suits them. Since it is not something that comes up in the speccing process. The question I'm asking is: "should it?"

To finish the thought on narrow versus wide hands. I agree that because of the weight on the front end and pedal leverage; I cannot see hamster position ever being desirable to me while peddling. Maybe a tuck while coasting down a hill at mid speed, but I think that would make me nervous of destabilization like Hardy describes. However I also think it is natural to try that when riding and everyone will, someone will probably even like it. I did it on the road and immediately concluded I would need a lot more miles and skill to ride that position. John has that one picture of the vendetta with TT like bars. Not sure I have the stones to ride that one. It would be interesting to hear what Jim and other high mileage riders think of Hamster position (If Maria and ride it; I would discount that as the hyper exception need study) ; does one's ride skill ever reach a point that you'd want hamster position?... It seems given that the wider you go the more gross stabilization control you gain, so Hardy's point here is well taken and it is probably one many people are going to share, myself included. How wide outside of shoulder width will be personal ergonomic issue or so it seems; and that's a preference.

So back to our issue with the stock bars being one of the angle and position of the flare not the width of the bars. Our search for different bars started because with the stock ones; with the boom set for leg clearance and the correct forward reach we always got an outward bend at the wrist of about 20-30 degrees and a upward turn of 10-20 degrees. We could fix some of that with the extension, but then we had closed cockpit issues. If we fixed it without the extension, then we got either bent elbows or an uncomfortably wide hand position. It just never could be dialed in as comfortable, relaxed, controlled and powerful. Or more simply we never found a position for our shoulder widths that gave a straight arm + a straight wrist.

I believe that in trying to describe the brifters being too wide and too flared; I'm being heard as saying that the bars and arms were too wide. If you hear that; don't. Repeating myself, we wanted hands at shoulder width as a personal preference if possible, but there was also no wider position that solved primary goal. We wanted straight arms; low enough to have no forward wrist bend and narrow/wide enough to have no left/right bend and then have the strength to operate the controls decisively. It was our conclusion that the stock bars encourage the wrist bend to occur because of the flare; and then encourage a bent arm position (elbows out) to get an alignment without wrist bend that give hands enough power to operate the controls.

So looking where to go next we mocked up the cruzbike bike bullhorns with wood dowels and decided that was going to be too steep and hands too high because of the boom angle at our height without an extension. I don't really want my hands very high above my heart for blood flow issues. (side note I have had bad arthritis since age 20; blood flow matters) Enter the bull horns with the drops; they were a dumb luck idea. In the end those simply lower the angle of attack on the arms. Instead of lowering the boom they just lower the arms and they do it without closing the cockpit down. As a plus the bottom of these bars is higher than the stock bars so we pickup more clearance for turns; not less, but we do loose 1 hand position. So be it. If the bars were custom and wider 460mm or 480mm they would be even better for leg clearance; if they where custom and had 10mm more reach they'd be spectacular. But that's fit issue again.

So lastly to the Aero chase; we still do want to pursue the 50/60mm extension coupled with the drop bullhorns. I think that for us that will still leave the cockpit open enough to avoid lobsteritis but will also yield even more leg arm and torso alignment and allow a bigger rider to get some of the efficiency I can see in Ivan's body positions. This does not mean it will work, but it's not hard to explore; so we will. Equally intriguing would be some of the MTB dropbars pairs with a 50/60mm extension; I can see that providing many riders a better fit. And that's what this is about; the better the fit the better the ride.

Now if the CNC shop would get me that quote on extensions I could move on. That or the stupid stupid polar vortex could get out of dodge. 18F here again today. But they say 68F on sunday.
 

Jeremy S

Dude
I wonder if the stock

I wonder if the stock Silvio drop bars aren't actually designed for the Silvio, but are drop bars designed for a DF that work well enough to be adopted for the Silvio. If that's the case then I wouldn't expect the ergonomics to be perfect, since the position of the rider relative to the bars is completely different on the two types of bikes.
 
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