Proof of Upper Body Engagement

[ratz]

From Pedal to road

Oh nelly this is a fun one.

Ok I have both the Silvio 2.1 and the Vendetta TT in glorious fast yellow. (see what I did there)

I've also had more stupid expensive DF's than I care to count and a CATrike 700.
Not to mention the Quests in the garage.

I can get any of them up to a speed for an effort that would be classified as hammering out frustration; the difference is simply the speed that effort produces. Screaming down hill at 32mph+ on a quest 20in is a vastly different than doing 45mph+ on a Vendetta; I assure you both can invoke the "Perhaps I'm too old to be doing this" thoughts, but for different reasons; both of which, end with bouncing on the pavement.

You can hammer any bike; just depends on how you set it up. Lief and I have our Silvios configured in TANK mode That' by design. My tank still gets only 2 mph average less than my Vendetta; and I won't hesitate to race a TT bike with my TANK. I win as often as I loose; depends on the engine at the end of the day.

Any Silvio or Vendetta will give you a bike you can pound out your stress with on the open road.

FWIW no one every called my trike a tank, Other than me when pedaling all 50-lbs up hills.
On the down hill I believe they called it "WTF?"

But it did make it easy to be lazy after all coasting at 50mph or pedaling at 60mph what's the difference?

Configuration matters, Stock Silvios and Vendettas are configured to deliver what Suz craves, and you can tweak a Quest to do the same.

 

[ratz]

yes yes it does

I'm pretty sure the guy on the Trek Project One that I tailgated 40 minutes on the downtown Minneapolis MUP thought it looked Sinister too. Hey kept looking back at me; and I kept waving and saying out loud; "yep still here."

I think I helped him hammer out his frustrations that day.

Now You should see it what it looked like with the BIG Chain ring; that's the spring-time 49T; There was also a 60T for it once I got in shape. It still holds all the downhill KOMs around here that matter.

Now.....

For prospective; the Trike took A LOT of upgrades to elevate it to Sinister;
the Vendetta on the other hand was born that way.

 

[Robert Holler]

Lief,
I didn't think you

Lief,

I didn't think you sounded non-appreciative of your Silvio V1 - I was just trying to pry it from you hahahaha!

I did Cycle Oregon 2014 on my V1 Vendetta. 34,000 feet of elevation in 6 days. No WAY I would have been able to do that on another bike (upright or otherwise) It was awesome.

Robert

 

[Suz]

You're all awesome!

So I was sleepy until I started reading your great responses. Thought I would peruse the forum before nodding off but now I may be too excited to sleep thinking of what I should sell first to pay for a new Silvio.

Awesome comments by all - thank you for your input and the laughs, your comments answered all my questions and more. Didn't mean to hijack the post but wow what great information. It's pretty cool to hear the comments on use of your upper body, when you use it - when you don't. I had assumed since I don't feel it/or use my upper body on my trike I wouldn't on a cruzbike either. I sit pretty upright on my trike, though I've reclined the seat in the last month now that I have a headrest, and am almost all the way back, but that's no where near Ratz seat angle or the angle of the cruzbike, but it is a better/more powerful riding position.

Lief, I totally agree the trike is fun and I do feel a workout when I'm done but it's just missing that feeling I was used to before. You described it well. I do especially enjoy the stares I get from little boys as I ride by, I can't tell you how many "cool bike" comments I've had from the little guys that stop playing basketball or catch when I ride by.

Ratz, that is a seriously sinister trike. Mine is, well, not that. I thought mine looked cool, until you posted your picture, ha. I don't have the large wheel in back and was toying with doing a conversion, but then found Cruzbikes. And here I am...

Thanks again everyone.

 

[LarryOz]

reply to Andrew's question

"In my first 12 hour race last August, I rode my S for this first 104 miles, then Maria lent me her V for the next 52. Even though it was sized way wrong and I had other troubles, I tasted the speed and the aero."

What would you say about differences in your power output and muscle engagement between the two bikes?

To me I instantly noticed a difference between the S2.0 and the V2.0.
I did not have them to ride side by side which would have been ideal.
I traded my S for the V (wish I hadn't now , but oh well) So, I rode the S on a series of benchmark rides on 9-27-14. Then after switching the drive train components, I rode the S on the same series of benchmark rides. That was on 9-30-14. The only thing that was really different was I was riding Velocity A23 wheelset on the S with disc brakes, and Mavic OpenPro on the V with no disc brakes. (I think the Velocity wheels are considerably better, but will never know because left them on the V, as they where disc brake wheels. Maybe the better wheels with disc brakes equaled out the lesser Mavic rims???
9-27 was a good day for me, and you can see from my results how low my HR was for different wattages. (That's what I want on race day: 196 watts at 124 HR!)
When I repeated the tests 3 days later on the V my HR was considerably higher for the same wattages.
But he results are impressive though for the V. For example, at 196 watts, the avg speed on the S was 19.6mph, while the V was 23.2!
Anyway, I digress: about power out put and muscle engagement
And I don't know the names of all the leg muscles, etc. But, I can tell you that the more reclined position of the V definitely engages your muscles differently. I seem to fell I work the tops of my thighs more now than I did with the S, and also my abs.
I also think it is a matter of teaching you body how to apply the power to the specific bicycle format.
Gary (BentAero) told me that many recumbent riders felt that they could not really fully apply all their power to the pedals in the recumbent position for at least 2 years.
I think there is some truth in that. It is probably not a matter of years, but miles ridden really.
I put almost 5000 miles on my S in about 3 months leading up to the Mid-Atlantic 12 hour race. By that time I really did feel one with the bike.
I started taking KOM's almost every day on the roads around here. It felt amazing!
When I switched and rode Maria's V in the race those few laps - wow! I could feel the power, but just did not have the muscle memory to know how to apply it. Plus it did not fit me well. (That's a whole nother topic) - I ended up riding it at about the same speed as I was riding the V, but maybe with a little less power usage. I did not have a power meter at that time, so all I had was my HR data to look at.
...
This is the same thing I experienced when trying to ride the V on the same benchmarking rides that I did on the S 3 days earlier. The V was clearly faster for the amount of watts applied at the pedals. But, I could not apply nearly the same power. On that infamous ride, the most I could put out was 265 watts. When compared to 3 days earlier, I was able to put out 360 watts, on the same 2 mile ride. I was dumbfounded actually, as I had only been using my Vector Pedals for about 2 weeks. I knew they where calibrated correctly on both rides. Ratz assured me that power does not lie. Now my HR was another matter. So many things influence it. It was hard to swallow at first, but I have come to believe that now.
I still do not have nearly the miles on the V (maybe 1700 or so) as compared to the S, but I am now starting to feel like I can pedal with more power now. I think it will just get better and better the more comfortable and accustomed I feel on the V.
I know I rambled on and on, but hopefully answered your question.

p.s. I attached my benchmark data, but not really sure how it will be displayed since it a .xls file. If you are interested in my benchmarking data, send me a private message with your personal email, and I will send it to you.

 

[Andrew 1973]

Benchmarking

Larry,

Thanks for your input and the data. The .xls file is just fine and the numbers are very telling. I'm not typically a numbers guy but average power and average speed is very clear to me. Of course, the watts/mph really has my interest. I like the idea of getting more output for a given input...who doesn't?

Your run at 350+ (max) watts is my favorite in terms of demonstrating the efficiency of the Vendetta.

I was out on my Silvio last weekend and I noted how quickly I was able to reach and maintain my speed low 20's (mph). The idea of being able to sustain a higher speed with the same input (or less) has a definite appeal.

Thanks again for sharing your data.

 

[ratz]

Watts is watts

Watts per Kilogram is constant across rides for comparison. Everything else is variable. Once fully adapted to a bike you can look at your watts/kg on a given day and compare it to another day; that will tell you the state of your engine and how it performed that day.

How that equates to speed is variable for all the other factors, wind, temp, grade, etc etc etc.

I get excited when I can put out 1.5w/kg. Pro riders are +3w/kg.

Fortunately the Vendetta typically converts those watts into forward motion better than anything else I have to-date ridden, and the Silvio is no slouch. I don't recall the precise number but it's something like 3.62w/kg to win the tour-de-france. Memory might be failing me there.

Remember DF riders have to ride in a pace line to convert w/kg into high speed; on a Cruzbike you don't need the pace line; just wave at them as you pass them as you ride straight into the head wind that has crushed their souls into dust and has them staring at the pavement. Once and a while they will try and grab your wheel and then the real fun starts.

But again Oh Nelly we are far a tangent here. Isn't it fun.

 

[LarryOz]

watts per KG

OK Ratz, you said: ?"I get excited when I can put out 1.5w/kg. Pro riders are +3w/kg. "
Are you sure about your +3w/kg for pros. I am thinking more like >5w/kg.....
..
I know you are joking about 1.5 for you. I see your ride data, and unless you weigh in at about 250lbs, I'll be its alot higher than 1.5
...
I am putting out about 3.8 W/kg right now. I am certainly not bragging either; I feel pretty fit and all, but I don't think I could go and join the pro-circuit or even ride a group ride with those guys. I know there are elite riders out there that are able to push 290-300 watts for hours and hours and hours. My best attempt lately was only 220 for 4hours (thats 3.1w/kg). They are light-years ahead of me; like 30-40% more powerful. I am hoping to reach 350 FTP one day, but I know I have a lot of work (training) to do, and of course there is just a genetic limitation we each have, and it was not our choice what we got. At some point, based on our age, we will just hit the cieling. But you don't really know what it is until you try for it either.

I sure wish I had gotten power a year or two ago when I was riding DF, and then switched to Silvio, and now the V
It would be really cool data to look at and see the difference bike to bike and year to year.

 

[ratz]

Metric shemtric.

Guess I'm getting old I can't keep my imperial and metric straight. You are correct it's 6.4 - 6.8 w/kg which is 3w/lb.

 

[Rick Youngblood]

Guess I'm getting

Guess I'm getting old...

One year older to be precise, as of today...Happy Birthday Bob!

Sorry... couldn't resist.

 

[Lief]

Too...many...threads...can't.

Too...many...threads...can't...focus.

@Andrew - STP next year eh? Let me know when you decide - maybe I'll commit to it as well and we could meet & ride.

@Robert - I had to dig really deep to figure out what I was saying (because I wasn't really slamming/non-appreciative of the Silvio 1.0). I've never really considered moving it along (one of the ways I justified it in the first place with The Boss was by calling it "The last bike I'll ever need." - boy was that a critical error at a critical time) - but the leaps and bounds made in all of these new Cruzbikes certainly has to make me consider it.

 

[Maria Parker]

S vs. V

Hi Guys,

I got on the forum to test out Larry's complaint that he was having trouble posting and found myself overwhelmed (like Lief) by all the great stuff in here....but I couldn't resist this thread.

After many weeks of riding my Silvio2.0 with my 5:30 am morning riding group, I brought out my Vendetta today.

When I came back I told Jim, "I'm never doing that again." I was cold and lonely the whole ride. The Vendetta just goes too fast to ride with people on traditional bikes. I have my Silvio set up with a hub powered light and I wear lots of baggy clothes and keep the tires with very low air pressure. With the S set up like that, my friends can mostly keep up with me. The V was a different story, I left them at a moderate effort immediately and then got cold and lonely waiting for them.

Yes, the Silvio is just a more social bike.

 

[Andrew 1973]

"I have my Silvio set up with

"I have my Silvio set up with a hub powered light and I wear lots of baggy clothes and keep the tires with very low air pressure. With the S set up like that, my friends can mostly keep up with me."

It still takes an effort to make the Silvio slower than a road bike. I road a flat century near Charleston, SC and I grew tired of being out front alone while I watched everyone else disappear in my rear view mirrors.

Then there was my regular Friday night social ride. Even though it was an easy 16-17 mph pace, there was always the sprint zone within the last three miles. If I went off early on the sprint, it was a lonely ride back to the finish.

 

[Peder Torgersen]

I enjoy riding a Vendetta I

I enjoy riding a Vendetta I have passed a fast pace line.
Sometimes fast riders have passed me and I was not able to keep up with them but that has not happened often.

Trikes are easier to sell to first time customers.
If someone has a back or neck injury a trike can be better than a 2 wheel recumbent.

Some people with such injuries can ride comfortably on a MBB and others cannot because of the upper body workout.
I am located in Grimstad Norway a few years ago it was very difficult selling one of the models from Cruzbike.
There is more interest now about MBB recumbents but most of the people in this region have never seen a recumbent.

 

[Robert Holler]

I have tried to keep up with

I have tried to keep up with Maria on a ride before, but alas I did not have my old Kawasaki Ninja 750r - so it was rather hopeless.

;-)


Robert

 

[Andrew 1973]

This is what you need:

This is what you need:

 

[Wannabe]

lions tigers and bears OH MY!

AS a certified newby in the MBB realm maybe I should not say anything. OTOH as a very competitive spirit I have no choice.

I used to race motorcycles at an Amateur level. I was so good that they wanted to sponsor me as a full time pro. ( family dedication dictated that daddies do not put life on the line in such a way)

I also was ( after years of disciplined practice) pretty good at table tennis. Not bragging, just saying this to show that I am still a competitive soul.

SO........after reading all of this, I am wondering if I should have bought a V! At ~30 miles the 27 degree angle is not as much as challenge as it first was. I do like the Silvio 2.0. I am thinking that with the Rolf Vigor Wheels, rather hoping.... the S may be no more than 2mph slower than the V? Also I am a work in progress for fitness and weight loss. At ~ 230, while not a Clydesdale, I certainly could stand to loose about 40 pounds! AND IT IS that weight and the attendant lack of physical fittness that makes me think the V is just not quite the right bike for me now. If I can keep up with the ~18 to 21 mph group on my S, then I will be happy.

At 61, I have no idea what my body can or can not do. I was pretty good in track and field events as a youth. I guess better than average....I did have to work at it.

This has been a wonderful thread to read. Thank you all for posting your ideas etc.

Now off to work and later hopefully a short ride or spin time on the trainer

 

[LarryOz]

You will get a V eventually

David,
You sound a little bit like me.
Still pretty competitive - I played a lot of table tennis too back in the day - and even had a robot to serve it to me to practice different shots. I think I was up to about 1850-1900 level. (Does hurt the knees though more than cycling I will have to say).
Anyway...
I was a newbee back in June to the SIlvio 2.0. I rode it like crazy and competed in a 12 hour race in late August. I did decently, but craved more speed. I tried Maria's V2.0 and then went back to my S2.0. I felt like I was sitting straight up in the wind, even though I wasn't. I knew then I had to have one!
3 months ago I traded my S2.0 for a V2.0, and based on my power calculations, the S2.0 will go 2 to 3 mph faster with the same power input. Pretty incredible! I am still experimenting with it, but have recently bought a new V20 frame and am going to build it out for racing next year. I will keep my S2.0 on the trainer probably forever at this point.
I happen to know someone who has a V2.0 for sale but it is not advertized anywhere. Good price too.
Please email me if you would like to know more: larryoslund@gmail.com

 

[ReklinedRider]

Unadvertised V

sent you an email

KM