Steering damper/stabilizer

[Abbott Smith]

Personally, I think that this thread, especially that Ratz reply, is a perfect example of 'Hazing'. 'We suffered, so you must too!'.
While it does sound kinda fitting for a 'tribe' - 'tribes' are known to have initiation rites that often amounts to torture to promote loyalty in members - I think this is not how civilized people should behave.

Wheel flop and steering inertia are very real problems, and the fact that you later adapt to them does not mean that they 'go away' - they are just 'masked' by habit. But in extreme situations, when very fast and precise manoeuvres are needed to executed, steering damper might actually save your life by reducing the effort needed to control for boom inertia that does NOT go away. I = mR^2, and you cannot break the laws of physics.

I think that, barring design changes (negative angle and shorter boom), steering dampers should be 'factory-fitted' on Cruzbikes.
FWD MBB is an excellent design with great potential and real benefits, but you do NOT have to take bad with the good unless you absolutely have to.

There is a profound difference between advocating for a current engineering design to remain unchanged and the practice of hazing. Hazing is the act of making someone go through an irrelevant ritual humiliation to join a social group. That is not remotely the same thing as following a particular training regimen to aquire proficiency in operating a piece of machinery.

Your argument essentially boils down to "this regimen wouldn't be necessary if the bike had a dampener." The opposing viewpoint is that with a dampener this would be a different bike and there are many of us who love this bike design without a dampener. Does it have a learning curve. Yes. So does a pencil if you want to become a professional artist.

At no point during the learning process of acclimating to my V20 did I feel denegrated or humiliated by this community. Quite the contrary. I experienced incredible encouragement and support. That experience was not even remotely related to hazing.

 

[Balor]

Ok, I think you take me too seriously, as in - literally. No, I do not think that it is done on purpose, but the psychological mechanisms are the same. After all, perpetrators (and, often, victims that later turn out to be perpetrators) of hazing and torturous initiation rites usually think that they are doing it 'for their own good', not out of sheer sadism or with direct intention of promotion of 'tribe loyalty'.
But in the end, it boils down to just that.

Anyway, I'm sorry that my reply was unusually venomous, however:

The opposing viewpoint is that with a dampener this would be a different bike and there are many of us who love this bike design without a dampener. Does it have a learning curve. Yes. So does a pencil if you want to become a professional artist.

Now you simply prove my point by going into full-on dissonance reduction mode by claiming that 'I am better off this way' and defending status quo.

Now, HONESTLY, imagine this:

Your Cruzbike came with steering damper installed. It makes controlling it much easier to learn and less tiring to ride. It also features return spring to counter wheel flop.
Imagine that it broken one day, while still on warranty. Now, would you, REALLY, tell yourself: I'm better off with a bike that has a floppy, hard to control front triangle, I'll just take this thing off and not ask for warranty replacement?
Why would you do that?

 

[super slim]

Personally, I think that this thread, especially that Ratz reply, is a perfect example of 'Hazing'. 'We suffered, so you must too!'.
While it does sound kinda fitting for a 'tribe' - 'tribes' are known to have initiation rites that often amounts to torture to promote loyalty in members - I think this is not how civilized people should behave.

Wheel flop and steering inertia are very real problems, and the fact that you later adapt to them does not mean that they 'go away' - they are just 'masked' by habit. But in extreme situations, when very fast and precise manoeuvres are needed to executed, steering damper might actually save your life by reducing the effort needed to control for boom inertia that does NOT go away. I = mR^2, and you cannot break the laws of physics.

I think that, barring design changes (negative angle and shorter boom), steering dampers should be 'factory-fitted' on Cruzbikes.
FWD MBB is an excellent design with great potential and real benefits, but you do NOT have to take bad with the good unless you absolutely have to.

Balor have you ridden a Cruzbike, or are you just making assumptions?
I think if Cruzbike added every modification that a non Cruzbike owner suggested, then the bikes would weigh and cost twice as much as they do now!

I have been riding a Silvio V1.0 since 2008, and still make small wheel movements with every pedal, that a steering damper would interfere with and make balancing the bike hard!

The Cruzbike tribe is VERY supportive, and imformative!
I wish I had a well organised starting procedure, with feedback from other riders, when I was learning to ride in 2008!

 

[Balor]

Balor have you ridden a Cruzbike, or are you just making assumptions?

I have my own, DIY MBB. I'm now quite proficient and did 200 and 300 km brevets on it. It is heavy and unwieldy, but much faster (especially uphill) than RWD recumbent I've had before and that was of similar weight (and better aerodynamics!). It has angle of about 65 vs 72, a bit less trail and 26" wheels instead of 700c, but it gives me enough experience to make some assumptions about handling that apply to ALL MBB bikes.
I am also less susceptible to many biases due to hard-learned meta-cognition skills and some background in psychology, and I know groupthink and other dysfunctional (or lack of) logic when I see one. Yea, I know this comes off as pompous and condescending. It is also true.

Anyway, unlike what many people at, say, Bentrider claim, MBB design is not 'just hype' and I *know* why.
But it is often noted that there is a 'love-hate' relationships with Cruzbikes in general and MBB in particular - of particular note there is a 'Vendetta - SOLD before it killed me!' note in some guy's sig.
And you know what, HE is also right in a way and I also *know* why.

After doing some research of my own, I've come to some ideas how to make MBB design even better - leaving all the benefits, but reducing the flaws.
One of them is described in my 'Workshop' thread about negative angle and short boom.
Another is steering damper + return spring.

So, I've did a forum search to see if it was tried and what do I see?
People suggested it, people tried it, people found it improved handling on and off-bike... but prevalent advice is 'you are better off without it'. Why? Because if you train long and hard, you'll learn to ride anyway!
What kind of logic is that, but, unstated by implied, like I've already stated, "We suffered so you should too"?

 

[Balor]

I have been riding a Silvio V1.0 since 2008, and still make small wheel movements with every pedal, that a steering damper would interfere with and make balancing the bike hard!

Btw, did YOU try steering damper or just making assumptions?
People that tried it in THIS VERY THREAD claim that it improves handling. There are people that installed it on their homebuilt MBBs and also claim that it improves handling.

 

[castlerobber]

I understand that any 'Cruzbike tribesman' first desire would be to rip this concept apart to maintain status quo of Cruzibke design being the best thing ever, and I daresay - bring it on!

Hardly the way most people would initiate an objective technical discussion.

Personally, I think that this thread, especially that Ratz reply, is a perfect example of 'Hazing'. 'We suffered, so you must too!'.
While it does sound kinda fitting for a 'tribe' - 'tribes' are known to have initiation rites that often amounts to torture to promote loyalty in members - I think this is not how civilized people should behave.

When someone called you out for the hazing comparison being inappropriate, you responded:

Ok, I think you take me too seriously, as in - literally. No, I do not think that it is done on purpose, but the psychological mechanisms are the same.

In other words, claiming you didn't mean it that way, but then going right on as if you did.

But then I saw your post on another forum this morning:



In the immortal words of Forrest Gump,

 

[snilard]

I have my own, DIY MBB. I'm now quite proficient and did 200 and 300 km brevets on it. It is heavy and unwieldy, but much faster (especially uphill) than RWD recumbent I've had before and that was of similar weight (and better aerodynamics!). It has angle of about 65 vs 72, a bit less trail and 26" wheels instead of 700c, but it gives me enough experience to make some assumptions about handling that apply to ALL MBB bikes.
I am also less susceptible to many biases due to hard-learned meta-cognition skills and some background in psychology, and I know groupthink and other dysfunctional (or lack of) logic when I see one. Yea, I know this comes off as pompous and condescending. It is also true.

Anyway, unlike what many people at, say, Bentrider claim, MBB design is not 'just hype' and I *know* why.
But it is often noted that there is a 'love-hate' relationships with Cruzbikes in general and MBB in particular - of particular note there is a 'Vendetta - SOLD before it killed me!' note in some guy's sig.
And you know what, HE is also right in a way and I also *know* why.

After doing some research of my own, I've come to some ideas how to make MBB design even better - leaving all the benefits, but reducing the flaws.
One of them is described in my 'Workshop' thread about negative angle and short boom.
Another is steering damper + return spring.

So, I've did a forum search to see if it was tried and what do I see?
People suggested it, people tried it, people found it improved handling on and off-bike... but prevalent advice is 'you are better off without it'. Why? Because if you train long and hard, you'll learn to ride anyway!
What kind of logic is that, but, unstated by implied, like I've already stated, "We suffered so you should too"?

There are MBB bikes easier to ride and others not so easy to ride. I was testing Hungarian home biuld MBB and have to say that riding my Vendetta is much easier. My Vendetta has much lover wheel flop than tested homebuild.

 

[trapdoor2]

Hmmm. I'll just say that I use a squishy-software driven, active (very) steering damper that automatically compensates for all those supposedly nasty design flaws. It contains some really cool features that are useful both on and off the bike.

 

[super slim]

Hmmm. I'll just say that I use a squishy-software driven, active (very) steering damper that automatically compensates for all those supposedly nasty design flaws. It contains some really cool features that are useful both on and off the bike.

You mean your leg muscles??

 

[trapdoor2]

You mean your leg muscles??

I like to think of it as a whole body experience. At least the software thinks everything is involved. After a good hard ride, it all feels like it has been involved. Sometimes I think my hair is even sore...

 

[Abbott Smith]

Ok, I think you take me too seriously, as in - literally. No, I do not think that it is done on purpose, but the psychological mechanisms are the same. After all, perpetrators (and, often, victims that later turn out to be perpetrators) of hazing and torturous initiation rites usually think that they are doing it 'for their own good', not out of sheer sadism or with direct intention of promotion of 'tribe loyalty'.
But in the end, it boils down to just that.

Anyway, I'm sorry that my reply was unusually venomous, however:



Now you simply prove my point by going into full-on dissonance reduction mode by claiming that 'I am better off this way' and defending status quo.

Now, HONESTLY, imagine this:

Your Cruzbike came with steering damper installed. It makes controlling it much easier to learn and less tiring to ride. It also features return spring to counter wheel flop.
Imagine that it broken one day, while still on warranty. Now, would you, REALLY, tell yourself: I'm better off with a bike that has a floppy, hard to control front triangle, I'll just take this thing off and not ask for warranty replacement?
Why would you do that?

At the end of the day this feels like an automatic vs manual transmission discussion to me. If I bought an automatic and it stopped functioning, I would be annoyed. If I only had the option to buy an automatic that would be a different type of annoying. I bought my V20 knowing that it had a learning curve. I accepted that curve.

Is the design perfect? No. It continues to evolve. A model with a dampener might be a reasonable option just as there are differences between the Vendetta and Silvio. I made my choice and I am content. It's the best bike I have ever owned.

None of these statements is group think. None of my experiences were hazing. There are simpler bikes than the current design. There will be future iterations that may have a different learning curve and that curve may be significantly easier to master. Sharing how I learned to master this curve and encouraging other riders as they tackle the curve is not group think and it is not adversarial.

I do not have a problem with your assertion that a dampener will solve certain aspects of the design that you feel are poorly engineered. I don't have a problem with your advocating that a dampener will significantly lower the learning curve. I do have a problem with the notion that those of us who have chosen not to install a dampener are not entitled to disagree with you.

And on the subject of psychology. You'll catch more flies with honey than with vinegar.

 

[Rick Youngblood]

I agree with Abbott. Nice!

My opinion is this. The so called steering stabilizer is not necessary in order to master a Cruzbike. Why, I've mastered the Silvio and Vendetta, and so has many others without one. Should all Cruzbikes come with one, I say no. What about as an option, sure why not. Personally I just don't see how it could have helped me conquer the curve any sooner than I did. I picked it pretty fast and what I considered in a reasonable amount of time relative to learning other high racer recumbents, even faster than some. I'm not against it, just at this point glad I did not have one installed while learning. My opinion, as is others, the pedal street is part of this very unique bike. So no, the pedal steer is not a design flaw, the bike being sold without one is also not a flaw. Does it make the better, not in my opinion, it's more weight and more cost.

However, with that said, the "Flop Stop", when stopped . That's a whole different story, annoying yes. But after coming on 15,000 miles I'm used to the front flop and now call it normal, and have learned to deal with. If one was sold as an aftermarket item, I wouldn't buy one, just because of the weight.

'Vendetta - SOLD before it killed me!' note in some guy's sig

This is ludicrous, Vendettas don't kill. User input was the problem.

 

[mzweili]

"Flop Stop",

I would buy one. Would make handling/parking much easier.

 

[super slim]

I still think that it would interfere with normal riding!
MTB have them to stop severe front wheel movement when hitting a rock or tree root, NOT for normal riding!

 

[Robert O]

Buddy of mine has one on his touring bike, but it's there to keep the heavily loaded fork from turning when the front bags are loaded, not for effects when in motion.

 

[pedlpadl]

I agree, steering damper is not necessary. There are times during the learning curve where I might have thought differently, but I figured it out, as most people do.

As far as front end flop - a device you could put on when not riding to make loading, carrying, storage, etc. easier is not a bad idea. But I would leave it in the car or garage, not carry more weight on the bike.

 

[RojoRacing]

Anyone who has not had the privilege of using a wheel flop stabilizer has not right to criticize its viability. There's a reason for the saying "you don't know what your missing".

A proper wheel flop stabilizer setup should have almost no effect on normal bike handling due to its progressive resistance design. The only time you could feel the effects of the spring would be very slow tight turns and just barely if you focused on it.

I'd wager if a CruzBike came from the factory with a stabilizer that 90% of owners would keep it with the remaining 10% choosing to ditch the extra weight. I totally agree the cost would most likely raise $50-100 per bike from the factory for such a feature.

 

[Zzzorse]

I'd wager if a CruzBike came from the factory with a stabilizer that 90% of owners would keep it with the remaining 10% choosing to ditch the extra weight. I totally agree the cost would most likely raise $50-100 per bike from the factory for such a feature.

How would you (personally) retrofit one to the Silvio? There's not that nice little flat area where you placed the rivet nut on your Vendetta frame. My older Silvio has a small radius round section where it would need to go. Suggestions?

 

[RojoRacing]

How would you (personally) retrofit one to the Silvio? There's not that nice little flat area where you placed the rivet nut on your Vendetta frame. My older Silvio has a small radius round section where it would need to go. Suggestions?

Close up picture of problematic area please. Remember seat tubes aren't flat and they accept river nuts for water bottle cages just fine.

 

[ratz]

It's always fun when old threads come back alive.

The 4 core issues in the way mechanical stabilizer are as follows: weight, cost, fragility, and on/off ability. I have seen two that will work: in the in the fork tube dampeners and return to center spring systems. Both have pluses and minuses.

There will be a dampener offered for the product line in the future, it will add weight and it will add cost. It will be optional and it will remain a choice. In the end the choice is what matters.

There is a bike here at the retreat that has a dampener installed, and it is already a topic being discussed for both learning and for the dreaded wheel flop. For every person that learns to ride a bike without training wheels as a kid, there are 1000's more that use them With successful trajectories. If the the goal is to get more people on Cruzbikes and happily riding then this solution has to occur and it will because that is the goal, more riders. While hand training people works, it does not scale and mechanical system like automatic transmission do.

Now to the tone of the thread. Since it came back from the dead...This thread probably doesn't get into a back and forth if I'm not the one called out for hazing. I hope most of that is a language barrier thing. "get off my lawn guy" is a pretty regional U.S. Joke for someone that can't handle change and who rails against it from the confines of his picket fence yard. I was well aware that what I wrote over a year ago could be miss construed hence wrapping the comments in that humor. Having trained a large number or people and observed their adaptation, I have objective evidence that a stabilizer is not a requirement and in some cases it just might interfer with rider development. We have seen a larger number of people come here do a home brew stabilizer, fail and depart for other bikes, and we have a few that had the mechanical skills to make it work and did. That would be a key reason an official version will come to be.

When answering people's question we want them To succeed and we have seen more success without a stabilizer than with one, and that has more to do with mechanical abilities of a person to create one than it has to do with the mechanical benefits. So the initial advice at the time of those posts was that most people are more likely to succeed with practice than with bunggie cords strapped to the boom (yes people have done that). So by all means discuss away, but I will suggest that if you want to get the majority of the veterans to join in you might want to install a dampener on you keyboard that takes the unnecessary combative nature out of the posts. we can do better than that, a lot better and still make the same points and just maybe have an even better conversation. Aggressive wording is still aggressive wordy and dressing it up in follow up posts does change the nature of them nor does it confuse the majority of people that read it for what it is..