What I learned building out a pair of 2016 V20 Vendettas

[ReklinedRider]

Yikes. I know nothing about the need for adding spacers to the bottom bracket. As for brakes....why make a bike that doesn't use the standard brake caliper screw? I did add a washer to the front brake on Silvio 1.5 but no other issues. Also bought brake cable in the 'tandem' length for the rear brake and have the same available for Vendetta, and have extra housing available if needed. But it's disconcerting to hear an experienced bike person like yourself having issues w the V build. I haven't started mine yet and now I'm worried!

 

[Doug Kline]

Doug did you use the spacer with the wheelmfg bottom bracket on your SRAM crankset?

Opps, sorry I missed seeing this question. A bit late, but, no, I didn't use a spacer, just the wave washer.

 

[trplay]

But it's disconcerting to hear an experienced bike person like yourself having issues w the V build. I haven't started mine yet and now I'm worried!

LOL don't worry. I'm not having issues with building just having issues expressing myself in English. My native tongue is Georgian. Every one of those issues is small stuff that are easily avoided if you know in advance. The brake caliper screw can't be standard because there are a lot of different sized forks. Your LBS will have a box full of sizes from 20mm up. Also different size brakes and extra washers changes the screw reach. The purpose of my post is to give builders a heads up so they want be delayed or worse, settle for a short cut. I'm famous for short cuts.

 

[trplay]

I thought I was the only one to use more than one chain in a waxing rotation. Used to use three chains, but now use just two, as chains are not exactly cheap. I was wondering whether a standard chain would be long enough for a Vendetta. On the QX100, a standard SRAM chain is just long enough.

You can order bulk chain from the Bacchetta site. Ten speed KMX is $70 for 11"8' of chain. Pretty good deal and only one break in your chain line.

 

[ratz]

Bottom brackets continue to confuse me. T

Ah the joy of BB's.

I tried the edge cases and lost much sleep and shop time several times.

So I do not have my new Vendetta booms in hand yet; but I already know they will be:
1) English thread 68mm.
2) The chain stays still uses a clamping bracket meaning we have to use a crank with a 24mm diameter spindle (the round bar that connects the left and right cranks)
3) A bottom bracket with "external cup bearing" that we can clamp to.

The challenge is that 24mm cranks are no longer the high-end part they use to be and are being phased out. To further complicated things is the fact that vendors have been improving the legacy 24mm tech in ways that aren't friendly to our Silvio's and Vendettas.

As of now, SRAM still ships with a S30/V20 compatible BB, but it's outer casing is weak and it is easy to over tighten the chain-stay clamps which can crush the bearing or wreak the free spin of the cranks. We have used those SRAM BB's on our Silvio's in the past because I had them on hand. They only last about 3000 miles and then they really degrade, making them pretty much a replace each spring part. Given that they are just a $30 part that's not surprising.

Meanwhile Shimano has been using smaller bearing, as of late, on their high-end stuff. As such the new stuff has a smaller external cup diameter that does not work well with the S/V clamps. In those cases you need to add shim-spacers to increase there diameter if you want to use the Shimano BB.

Lastly, in the big players, FSA has been shipping with a really rounded off BB cup that's hard to clamp too. With those you are almost forced to use spacers to push the cups outward to get enough surface area into the clamp for it to bite on to.

So what's a CBer to do?

For me I have settled on using just stuff from RWC on Vendettas and this spring the Silvios too, I won't use the BB's that come with the cranks anymore . The ones from RWC come with extra spacers and they are angular bearings. They come with a "pre-load" wave washer that goes crank side. That wave washer keep the angular bearing properly seated and the cranking spinning free after install. The tech-support is also really good. All of their BB's have sufficient surface area to clamp to. Lastly the bearings are replaceable cartridges so you can buy extra if you are worried about future availability of compatible BB's.

RWC will sell BB's with:
24-x-24mm cups for Shimano, Race Face, Rotor.
24-x-22mm cups for Truvativ, SRAM and Bontreger. (GXP)

Yes GXP is tapered on one side. That taper makes it really easy for beginners to install correctly. All you do is torque the non drive arm and poof it's installed correctly. You can't imagine the cursing in my garage the first time I encountered a non-GXP BB install. Lacking the knowledge to get the crank installed in 5 minutes cost me 3 hours, but afterwards I knew the ins and outs. In the end theses are the same BB. The GXP one just has a 2mm spacer inserted. You can pound out that spacer if you ever need to go from GXP to Shimano.

Now what about all the new standards?

• Well The new internal bearing stuff "press-in/press-fit" we can't use on the Cruzbike because there would be nothing to clamp too because the bearing go inside the frame. So BB92/B86 are out.

• The non-threaded stuff won't work either as it would spin and the front triangle wouldn't hold its shape. A lot of these new internal bearing stuff are bike frame specific, so they are very prevalent on TT Bikes and other specialty builds. They do crack me up with there "NEW"ness because they really are just reinventing square taper without the integrate shaft for better ecology.

• BB30 is an interesting development and the one that has the most steam across product lines, if one has to succeed long term I hope that's the one. Sadly even BB30 is under attack, so vendors can lock you in. But for now, the BB30 replaces the 24mm spindle with a 30mm one. The idea is:
  • More strength with less weight from a thinner metal spindle
    • Better spacing on the bearing
    • Less bearings total
    • Same load capacity
    • Less component weight
  • Better spin.
  • You can get Internal or external bearings cups.

The external ones look just like the 24mm; but unfortunately because the spindle is bigger the bearings are further out and the cup is 2mm too big to fit into a Vendetta or Silvio chain stay clamp. And no you can't stretch the clamp and hack it, I tried and failed 1mm too little give; and not enough metal to drill it out.​

So 24mm cranks are clearly now being phased out. Give it about 4 more years and they will probably be hard to find in all but a few styles. Why? because less and less frames are being designed for them, so as the old bikes age out of use there will be less demand for them.

Don't know about you, but I don't fancy myself buying go fast parts from Rivendell Bikes. No doubt future Silvio's and Vendetta's will either have a BB30 clamp or the will abandon the clamp all together and re-engineer the linkage between the stay and the boom. My money's on the re-engineering as I think there is potential to gain strength and stability there without adding weight; then we could be BB agnostic.

So for anyone that is confused if you want a good BB then here's my guide

Recreation Rider / Dry weather rider
Shimano Style go here: http://www.enduroforkseals.com/id198.html
For SRAM style go here: http://www.enduroforkseals.com/id484.html
Only the get the Stainless Steel $99 ones. It will probably last the life of your bike

Don't waste the money on the Ceramic ones; if you even think you need those then you need this next one.

If you are racing or riding in wet conditions
Shimano Style go here: http://www.enduroforkseals.com/id240.html
For SRAM style go here: http://www.enduroforkseals.com/id332.html

Yeah I know $199 for a BB? what the heck. it's not even ceramic.... You are MAD!!! Possiblly, but not for that opinion, I will venture that this $199 BB plus a $110 crankset will trump a $30-99 BB plus a $400 crankset every single day of the week. That opinion is bolstered by the fact no one that has purchased the XD-15 on my advice has ever complained it was a bad choice; and the XD-15 lasts for stinking forever.

Oh and their BB torque tool is brilliant get that tool

 

[ratz]

Also different size brakes and extra washers changes the screw reach. The purpose of my post is to give builders a heads up so they want be delayed or worse, settle for a short cut. I'm famous for short cuts.

Yeah and about the only place you can get reliably get washers if you need to buy them is Niagara Cycles
http://www.niagaracycle.com/search.php?search_query=brake+washers

Always good to have a few Tektro and Campagnolo serrated washers on hand when building a V/S up. Every one of my builds need some combination of those to get the breaks to clear the front fork. Good thing they are really cheap.

 

[ratz]

Yikes. I know nothing about the need for adding spacers to the bottom bracket.

The spacer are need in some case because the vendors are getting cute and changing the outer shape; but either rounding them off on the out side; or reducing the diameter. Round ones need spacers to push them out into the clamp; and smaller diameter ones need shims. What parts you need, if any, depends on the BB you select.

 

[Doug Kline]

Are you using Jagwire Road Pro Kits for cables/housings?

Not from a kit. I've done enough fiddling with bikes that I buy 50 foot bulk of Jagwire housing.

One of my V20's had a housing stop where it entered at the top of the hydroformed tube. On that bike I just ran unhoused cable through the bike and then had more housing after the frame to the brake.

On my other V20, the stop at the top of the hydroformed tube was missing. On that bike I had to run cable housing all the way from the brifters to the rear brakes. I haven't seen any issues yet with doing that - no compression or movement of the housing. Although this isn't the intended approach, having housing all the way will make changing the brake cable easier.

 

[ReklinedRider]

LOL don't worry. I'm not having issues with building just having issues expressing myself in English. My native tongue is Georgian. Every one of those issues is small stuff that are easily avoided if you know in advance. The brake caliper screw can't be standard because there are a lot of different sized forks. Your LBS will have a box full of sizes from 20mm up. Also different size brakes and extra washers changes the screw reach. The purpose of my post is to give builders a heads up so they want be delayed or worse, settle for a short cut. I'm famous for short cuts.

All 'heads up', 'trip wires ahead' etc warnings and advice greatly appreciated from everyone! Because of Doug's posted experience I now have a handful of Tektro washers (indeed, straight from Niagara Cycles--great customer service). Because of ratz I will give the BB that came w my crankset a try but any trouble and I'll be off to RWC. And because of the Georgian, first thing after church I'll be trying the screw(s) that came w the FSA brakes to see if they fit the fork; if not a remedy can be sought before getting into the thick of it.

(I can usually make sense of all but the most subtle of nuances in the Georgian tongue--it's not so terribly different from Mississippian, far less different than, say, Klingon and Vulcan. Besides, I was born in Georgia)

 

[Apollo]

I was wondering whether a standard chain would be long enough for a Vendetta. On the QX100, a standard SRAM chain is just long enough.

I had wondered about that too, but never heard of anyone using only a single chain before. It might be possible if you have two chainrings combined with a narrow range cassette and a short cage derailleur. I'm planning to use a 12-25 or 12-28 cassette with 50/38 or 52/39 chainrings, and don't know if a single chain will work. If someone has attempted this I'd be interested to know. I'm certain it's not officially recommended. I would have been able to clearly answer this question if the medium frames would only stay in stock because I'd have one in my hands now. Heck, at this rate I might have to look at the used market (again) if I'm ever going to get the build done before summer.

 

[Rick Youngblood]

I had wondered about that too, but never heard of anyone using only a single chain before. It might be possible if you have two chainrings combined with a narrow range cassette and a short cage derailleur. I'm planning to use a 12-25 or 12-28 cassette with 50/38 or 52/39 chainrings, and don't know if a single chain will work. If someone has attempted this I'd be interested to know. I'm certain it's not officially recommended. I would have been able to clearly answer this question if the medium frames would only stay in stock because I'd have one in my hands now. Heck, at this rate I might have to look at the used market (again) if I'm ever going to get the build done before summer.

You may be okay with one chain - however, I can't say for sure. My V setup is 52t Q-Ring with 12-42 cassette. I use one chain + 5 (or so) extra chain links (to make use of big-big). Keep in mind the extra chain you buy will work to give you the extra links for most all future builds. So far between the Silvio and Vendetta builds (3) I used only a small portion of my extra chain and still have enough for many more future chain re-builds.

As far as BB. My next (and very soon) bike upgrade will be the RWC BB, as Bob has recommended. I too think the stock BB's are cheap and weak and aren't meant to take the stress of a BB clamp tightening down on them. EDIT: The stock BB shells should work OKAY as an inexpensive way to get the bike built, just don't over tighten the BB clamp. I tighten mine down to "slightly-snug".

 

[ReklinedRider]

The stock BB shells should work OKAY as an inexpensive way to get the bike built, just don't over tighten the BB clamp. I tighten mine down to "slightly-snug".

Has anyone w a torque wrench quantified 'slightly snug'?

 

[Rick Youngblood]

Has anyone w a torque wrench quantified 'slightly snug'?

I'm not sure there is an exact torque wrench rating that would be as good as the input feel.

Below is the advice I follow posted by Robert way-back-when (only I substitute "good" with "slight"):
"I never torque the ring clamps more than a good "snug" of about 1/4 or so turn after they become tight. There is no need to wrench super tightly down on them and stripping them would be a bad thing."

 

[ratz]

Install the crank and rings without a chain. Spin the crank rapidly. While it spins, tighten the chainstay bolts, alternate left and right. When the tightening causes the crank to visually slow its spin; stop, back off one quarter turn and you should be good

 

[Rick Youngblood]

Install the crank and rings without a chain. Spin the crank rapidly. While it spins, tighten the chainstay bolts, alternate left and right. When the tightening causes the crank to visually slow its spin; stop, back off one quarter turn and you should be good

I haven't tried this method yet, but have used it while tightening the crank arm to the spindle. I've found over tightening the crank arm to the spindle will also cause the cranks to not spin freely.

Just ordered the RWC BB for the Vendetta!

 

[pedlpadl]

Perhaps this is a good place to review issues some will encounter when doing a frame build?

Perhaps a new forum called Building a Frame Set with a sticky at the top? Issues I've encountered so far:

1) Boom too long for short legged folks. I drilled out the bottle cage nuts in the slider.
2) Not enough housing in a standard road bike cable/housing kit. Using a combination of Shimano and Jagwire until I can get some more matching Jagwire.
3) Front brake pivot bolt not long enough to go through the fork. The LBS had a longer sleeve bolt off an old bike they gave me.
4) Front brake pads won't clear the fork. Add some flat washers temporarily until I get serrated washers.
5) Attaching the FD, I found that I could only get the chain guide to within 4-5 mm of the large chain ring (50t). Shimano wants it to be 1-3mm. Hoping this won't be an issue.
6) BB that came with my group set (Ultegra 6800) had outer cups that were too small in diameter to work with the boom ring clamps. I had to go buy another BB.

 

[Doug Kline]

I've found over tightening the crank arm to the spindle will also cause the cranks to not spin freely.

I would think you'd want to tighten the cranks to the manufacture's specified torque range. It is printed on the SRAM cranks I've used. After that, if it doesn't spin freely or has lateral movement, then you need to deal with the spacing. I probably wouldn't want to under torque a crankset.

 

[LarryOz]

Just ordered the RWC BB for the Vendetta!

It is a nice BB. You'll probably probably go faster now, plus you'll never have to buy another one!
Have fun - snowing here now... Guess I'm on the KICKR for the next couple of months.

 

[ratz]

I would think you'd want to tighten the cranks to the manufacture's specified torque range. It is printed on the SRAM cranks I've used. After that, if it doesn't spin freely or has lateral movement, then you need to deal with the spacing. I probably wouldn't want to under torque a crankset.

That might not have been clear. The tightening we are talking about is the ChainStay clamp; the part the clamps on the the outside of the BB cups. I believe you are talking about the Crank itself; that by all means you should torque probably per the manufacturing.

Because the CB ChainStay clamps are attached to a variety of different BB all made of different materials that compress differently; there's really no way to specify a torque value. Basically it's "as tight as it needs to be for stability and no more"..

This is the clamp we are referring to.

 

[Rick Youngblood]

I would think you'd want to tighten the cranks to the manufacture's specified torque range. It is printed on the SRAM cranks I've used. After that, if it doesn't spin freely or has lateral movement, then you need to deal with the spacing. I probably wouldn't want to under torque a crankset.

Yes, of course Doug. Sorry for me not being clear - Within the MFG suggested TRQ specifications.