Rack solution for the Silvio 2.1

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Well where to start...

I love the bike, and love riding it, including to work.  I commute daily 10 mile to work, and though I know it is probably sacrilege to mar the good looks of this sleek machine with a rack, I need to carry more than my Double Century bags could hold.

I had read some to the forum postings and was looking at the Thule rack but judging from the angle of where it mount to the seat stays, I did not think it would clear the back of the bike.

I found the M-Wave Alloy One-4-All Bicycle Carrier Rack

It looked like it could work so I ordered it, $35 not too bad a price. Unfortunately the lower arms were too short.

The engineer in me said, well it is close, lets see what we can do.
3/8 aluminum rod cut to 14", 5/8 aluminum tubing cut 3", pressed 1/2" and drilled for the bolt.

 

It works well, though there is a little tail waging the dog going on, but it is not too bad.

I will add a picture of the full setup later today

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It looks like it interferes

It looks like it interferes with the suspension. As the suspension flexes, something l will eventually give.

It should either be exclusively linked to the rear seat stay or the main frame i.e (seat back, and/or neck rest) but not both. 

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AK is right. You want to be

AK is right. You want to be careful not to short-circuit the rear suspension.  I think you'll be a lot happier if you can mount the front of the rack to the seat stays instead of the seat.

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I really appreciate anyone

I really appreciate anyone trying to come up with a solution to mounting a rack on the new Silvio.
I wish I could mount a rack on my 2.0 and in fact I was led to believe that this was possible when I ordered my 2.0 and the accessories list had a rack as an option.
Maria informed me that the rack, which had worked on the older versions of the Silvio, would not work on the 2.0 but that Cruzbike was working on a solution.
The fact that they have not come up with a solution yet doesn't give me much hope that there will be a rack in the 2.0's future.

Just look at the inherent design challenges of trying to mount a rack on a bike with this extreme of a seat angle presents.
In order to get the rack to not interfere with the seat the rack has to be placed beyond the rear axle.
Any load on the rack will have a negative effect on the front wheel traction which is already a problem with the FWD design.
This far rear ward location would also seem to make the rack less rigid due to the long strut lengths.
I just don't see how a rack can be safely mounted on the 2.0.

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For what it's worth, it looks

For what it's worth, it looks like the Thule Pack-n-pedal is somewhat adjustable:

Given Amazon's return policy, if it were me I'd order one and try it out (hint hint).

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Racking Your Brains

-over racks?

Ak-tux makes a valid point, a point I'd take to heart!

Tuloose also has some valid insights.

What's a Silvio 2.0 commuter to do?

How about panniers?
Side-mounted bags, hanging from either side of the seat would work.
Yes, the panniers would be less aero, but with the weight carried
both lower and closer to the C.G., handling would not suffer.

Adifferentbent's solution will work, until it breaks.
I have two suggestions:

-The modified rack needs an anti-sway brace/gusset, to
minimise that tail-wagging and,

-the points where the rack is mounted to the bicycle ought to
include some vibration absorbing rubber washers... if they don't already!

Good luck,

-Steve
 

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Good points all

Thanks for the input.  

Other than the momentum issues already mentioned I have not seen, or heard too much in the way of movement from the rack with the movement of the rear suspension.  Also keep in mind the travel of the rear suspension is fairly small.  I have noticed, especially in rain that there is more tendency for the front wheel to slip.

cplager - I will look at the possibility of moving the upper mounts to the seat stays, though I would think it would accentuate the side to side action.

Lets keep working on this, it is a worthwhile goal

- Dan 

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Could an Arkel Randonneur

Could an Arkel Randonneur like I fitted to my Silvio V1.0 be used on the V2.1, using the same clamps on the bottom connection that normally goes onto the seat post, and use the existing top bracket for the seat rail to clip in behind the headrest tubes.

SS

Arkel Randonneur rack and bag - Copy.jpg close up Arkel rack connection .jpg
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Thought

Would adifferentbent's solution work if rubber washers and nylon lock nuts were used on the lower arms, upper arms, and rack brace? Tighten the lock nuts enough to slightly compress the rubber washers, which should eliminate rattling, while allowing enough pivot to prevent suspension issues? Or would this exacerbate the "tail wagging"?

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Here is a video review of

Here is a video review of that Thule Pack-n-Pedal from the first time Charles introduced us to it.

It is actually much more adjustable than the one photo suggests as they have something like 3 different leg sizes plus some adjustability to accommodate several different frame geometries.

http://cruzbike.com/axiom-journey-2429-rack-silvio-2.0#comment-24249

-Eric
 

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Arkel Randonneur

super slim - The Arkel Randonneur could work, though you would have to come up with a bracket to attach to the furthest aft rear suspension mount to provide the bottom connection for the post mount , as the 2.1 no longer has the round elastomer configuration of the earlier model.  You would also have to use the Brooks Adapter (possibly modified) for the connection to the headrest tubing.

- Dan

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Instead of a rack I have been

Instead of a rack I have been thinking something from Radical would be good. The Solo Racer seems like a good fit for Silvio. I think we could mount then considerably lower on the seat of Silvio; perhaps even two sets one low and one high since we have no drive train to worry about. Here the best view of how they mount that I could find. The are 10 Liters

 

Or add the Bana racers for 25 Liters.
 

 

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another pannier option

Continuing the thread drift....

Looking through the Radical options, I like the racer pannier [narrow].  Apparently banana racer and racer [narrow] use the same bags, but have different mounting straps.  Racer [narrow] is set up for narrow seats.  The banana is flexible and can be used with either narrow or wide seats.  The banana is also about $70 more than the regular racer.

Racer Pannier [narrow]
http://www.calhouncycle.com/productcart/pc/viewPrd.asp?idproduct=281&idcategory=14

Click the "see a detailed shopcast..." link on the above web page to se a comparison of the various models. 

I like the look of the solo racer too.  That would hold a water bladder plus emergency supplies nicely.
Before I start buying other bags, I'll see if I can make my OFA bag work.

I have of time to think about these things.  My order is finally in the system, but that's as far as the process has gone.
And Mr. Winn eloquently described local riding conditions as "snow-bound and freaking cold" 

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Tim       The radical design

Tim
      The radical design side bags look good, and light, ie 1/2 the weight of equal volume capacity Ortlieb classic panniers that I use!

How waterproof are they, as an option is a bag liner.

See the attached pdf of the 50L side bags on the Silvio V2.1.

I think a rear rack or u shaped tubing might be needed to stop the top of the bags rubbing on the wheel

Super Slim

Silvio V 1.0  2.0     2014 02 04-Model.jpg
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how waterproof are the radical bags?

I wish I could tell you, but I haven't no experience with the bags.
All I know is what I've read on the Calhoun and Radical Designs web pages.  

I'm considering the bags for commuting.  I expect I'd line them on wet or questionable days.  Business casual does not extend to the drowned rat look. 

My silvio frame is somewhere over the Pacific or still in Taiwan. The wheels, etc. are between North Carolina and Michigan. I'll have the bike on the road in the second half of March. Panniers won't be needed for a while after that. 

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The Rack

Well, just boxed up the rack to go back to Amazon.  On the ride home today entirely too much wagging going on with the wind and all.  The load is just too far back of the wheel and the fulcrum effect was too disconcerting.

Given what I have experienced, I would say the Radical bags would probably work best, i just can't justify the expense.

As far as the liners, you could also go with small dry bag stuff sacks like the ones from REI

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I use this bag on my upright

I use this bag on my upright bike:

http://www.roswheel.com/en/prshow.asp?id=266

The bag is 6 liters in capacity but the rack that holds it may be of more interest.

For my conversion I am trying to find a pannier bag or vertical rack that mounts to only the left side of the bike under the seat pan. So far no luck though.
 

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never Quit

I was looking at the Radical Bags, and thought about Super Slim's comment about the Ortlieb Dry bags.  I am using the same Otlieb bags I got about 15 years ago...

If you already have dry bags this might be a workable solution

  
1 strap long enough to hold both bags, or you could do 2 straps one for the top and one for the bottom.  I will take some more pictures during the day to see how it works.

- Dan

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Dear Dan,    I have used my 4

Dear Dan,
   I have used my 4 Ortlieb bags for 6 years since starting long tours of 1,600 km to 3,500 km, and they are still as water tight and rigid, and undamaged but scratched, even after a few prangs,  as the day I bought them.

The 55 L Radical Design Banana bags look great and VERY light at 920 gm, compared the Ortlieb recumbent 54 L bag at 3200 gm.
Do they slide down the seat when fully loaded?

On the internet reviews that I have found, they are the preferred bags for dry trips due to the large capacity and low height, and ease of use with no heavy pannier rack. On wet trips a rack and Ortliebs were generally used with an increase of 2.0 kg.

What is the diameter of the headrest tubes, and what is the CL spacing?

Super Slim

 

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Measurements

Super Slim,

The Tube diameter is 19mm the outside measurement of the headrest assembly at the bend by the top of the seat is 75 mm

I have noticed them slide down a little, but a strap from the top or most aft strap to the headrest would eliminate that slippage.

I have  ridden for 2 days with the hanging setup and it works quite well

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another saddlebag option

In early January, BROL reviewed some saddlebags from Smoky Mtn Saddlebags. 
http://smokymtnsaddlebags.com

Their bags appear to be made for a wider seat, but could probably be made to fit a narrow seat with a little sewing. 
They look a bit small for my commuting plans, but good for day rides. 

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Dan,        Thanks for those

Dan, 
      Thanks for those dimensions.
I will see how I can attach the Arkel rack.

Timt, those are well priced bags!

Super Slim

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Thule Pack n Pedal Tour Rack

I spotted my friend with the Thule Pack n Pedal Tour Rack, and he kindly lent it to me to test the fitting on my Silvio. I thought this would be useful for the Cruzbike community. In summary, the Thule Rack would work with a minor cutting modification to make the deck smaller. 

Not obvious in the the Thule product photos online, but the Thule Pack n Pedal rack is VERY adjustable. It comes with struts of three different lengths and the clamp point can slide up and down. This means the angle is infinitely adjustable so you can get the deck perfectly flat. It can certainly accommodate the angle of the Silvio 2 stays. Here you can see me holding the rack in the approximate position it would be mounted with the deck horizontal. Due to Silvio's disc brake mounts, the Thule rack would have to be positioned above them, thus higher and closer to the frame. Due to these factors, you can't mount the rack out of the box because the deck would hit the frame around where the titanium leaf bolts to the frame. Note I am NOT holding it directly over the rear wheel because I would not be able to position in horizontally to show you what it would look like.

In this next side picture you can see clearly that a few cm of interference is present. The difficulty with  Silvio 2 is not the angle of the stays (the Thule can accommodate this) but how low and close the frame is to the rear wheel. You can see in the side picture, that it would require some modification, then the rear 2/3 of the deck would be usable. My Crud RoadRacer II fenders do not get in the way and could remain. My underseat water bottle mounts would not be able to be used. It would be either my large Topeak saddle bag OR another back on the rack if the rack were to be installed.

So what modifications would be required? I think trimming the plastic deck would do. Remember, I borrowed this rack just to test for curiosity and report to you folks. I have not done this myself. If I did modify the rack I would probably cut it like this:

The rear 2/3 of the deck would then be usable, and panniers could be hung from the rails. I would probably slide those rails back a few cm so there is more clearance. Note that Thule also sells rails with the side bars to prevent panniers from hitting the wheel. This looks nice, but you could probably achieve the a similar function with some strong bungee cords, and may not even need it depending on how stiff your panniers are.

Also note that the width of the clamping points are for the rear stays of bike, assuming hub widths of 130-135mm, so for our Silvio one would have to squeeze the frame a little. Not a problem, but taking it on and off would be a little fiddly. If I really needed a rack now for existing panniers and a small bag on top, I think this would work nicely - plus it can be removed and used on other bikes. However, if I were buying bags from scratch I think seat mounted bags/panniers would eliminate the need for a rack altogether if your loads were not large. 

Thus, I think Cruzbike's previously discussed official Silvio rack is still needed for moderate to large loads. Something hung from the frame in place of the stock headrest would be interchangeable and a great accessory. Images above can be opened in a new window to view higher resolution. Hope this helpful!

 

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 Fantastic!  I've been

 Fantastic!

 I've been waiting for somebody to actually get a hold of one these racks who has a Silvio. I very much like the picture where you show how you'd cut the top of the rack.

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Going to try the Terratrike rear rack

Will report back.  It is small and height adjustable, but not sure about 700c clearance yet.
http://shop.terratrike.com/Aluminum-Rack-with-Elastic-Strap-p/tt800028.htm

Here is what it looks like on a ICE Sprint FS:

 

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 Hi Nanda,  I'm looking

 Hi Nanda,

 I'm looking forward to seeing what you come up with. Being a dealer means that you'll be able to sell a working rack, even if it needs rather customized.

 cheers, Charles

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Good options being explored.

Good options being explored. Use caution if placing any significant weight behind the rear axle - adverse handling can result (at least that has always been my experience on RWD highracers)

Best place for pannier weight is in front of the rear axle suspended below the seat. Mid-ship. I used to run this type of setup on my SWB Burley and Corsa SS and it actually made for improved handling in the curves. Less aero - yes - but if I need to haul a laptop and work clothes in traffic, bing super aero is off the concern list for that ride...

Robert

 

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Ditto

My experience testing fairings, tail trunks and saddlebags
on motorcycles on the road led me to the same conclusions
that Robert reached, riding his RWD highracers.

Best place for pannier weight is mid-ship, under the seat.

We're right; all the rest of y'all are just having fun.

-Steve

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Has anyone considered

Has anyone considered foregoing the top platform and go with just low riders ? Oldman Mountain makes a low rider that goes through the quick release, the other mounting point could use a P-clamp.

Couple this with Radical design's banana racer and you got a decent cargo for credit card touring.

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My experience testing

My experience testing fairings, tail trunks and saddlebags
on motorcycles on the road led me to the same conclusions
that Robert reached, riding his RWD highracers.

Best place for pannier weight is mid-ship, under the seat.

We're right; all the rest of y'all are just having fun.

-Steve__________________"Me, we."
-Muhammad Ali

Yes, on a motorbike when you can just turn the throttle a wee bit to counter the lost aero. 

I really want a sufficiently solid connection so that luggage can be carried behind the rider and not disturb either the handling or the air. I know the rule of thumb is to go midship, down low, but the energy cost of bulking up under the seat is appalling. 

I am working on the hypothesis that it is flex down the length of the bike that causes handling uncertainties with the load placed rearward, and not the slower lean in or turn in characteristics. 

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I have modified a spreadsheet

I have modified a spreadsheet from "Frank Berto & Jan Heine" and added cargo loads and positions, (see attached) to see if having two 12.5L Ortlieb panniers behind the seat, using a 26" *38 tyre, OR below the seat was faster!

I was expecting that the 700c * 28 tyres would be strong enough for a 19 kg load on a rear rack, but they are not nearly strong enough as they are only rated to 75 kg, not 84 kg, and would need 141 psi, which is above the 115 psi max pressure. 

The panniers behind with a 26*38 rear tyre, are 1.9 kph faster(113kg rider) than 2 panniers under the seat, and if I loose 30 kgs from the engine , I will be 1.5 kph faster than if using a 700c *28 rear wheel, with 75 watts input, which is my average power according to Strava on a 6 week ride.

I will try this option first and check how stable it is, as if camping I will need the rear rack + the rack under the seat.

I was surprised that the V 2.0 with its 27 degree seat back had only 2 kg higher rear wheel load for the 2 off 12.5L panniers, than the 45 deg V1.0.

I do not think I can loose 30 kg as that is my weight when at High School, just a few years ago!

Super Slim

 

AttachmentSize
tire_pressure for wheel load 2 .xls 79 KB
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For a credit card tour, the

For a credit card tour, the picture I posted before with my Revelate Designs Pika saddlebag should be enough (6-12L capacity). The aero advantage, plus lack of complexity without a rack will be hugely beneficial. Light items like jackets or a drybag can still be strapped to the top or below the pack.

While the pic above shows maximum extension and thus is a bit "over long" for aesthetic looks, I most often use it in the "minimum size" rolled up configuration shown below. To give you a sense of capacity, this minimum 6L config contains my size 8 shoes and one rolled up change of clothes and is still got lots of space for more.

I guess it depends on what kind of touring styles or distances you want to do. I veer towards John's aero preferences. My Pika saddlebag meets my needs without the cost or fitting challenges of the more capacious Radical Design Banana Racers.

 

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As I have started using mine

As I have started using mine to go shopping I need to start studying this bag problem.

My Grasshopper has had Radical bananas for 10 years.  I like them because they are huge.  You can get one universe in each side, and they do not have any compartments or many side-pockets.  I hate compartments and side-pockets.  I dislike them because they just hang, and have no ties on the sides.  When turning, they lean out and drag on the ground.  They slip sideways.  When empty, they lift up and look like spaniel's ears.
 

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You don't need a rack on a Cruzbike

You don't need a rack on a Cruzbike. You just need a couple of hooks. Although color-coordinated, this is the kind of thing that gives JT nightmares:

https://www.crazyguyonabike.com/doc/page/pic/?o=PS&pic_id=1765040&size=large&v=2

 

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I use a drawstring backpack

I use a drawstring backpack resting on my chest and stomach for everyday stuff. Take the drawstrings and cross them around your neck to keep the pack from moving side to side while you ride. It's quick and easy. No rack needed.

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