Silvio 2.0 disc hubs
Okay, I admit it.
1. I'm a tease.
2. My phone camera stinks even more since I updated the operating system.
What you see here is a Silvio 2.0 with essentially a Quest 2.0 braking system.
Avid BB5 Road calipers, 160mm front disc, 140mm rear disc, Shimano 105 brifters (I have Ultegra brifters; the 105's were already installed on the WTB bars, and they're functionally equivalent), Deore M591 derailleur (for the big cassette) and a SRAM PG 1030 11/36 cassette (these wheels are off of my Sofrider CityBike, and the bloody 9sp 11/34 cassette is STUCK on.)
29'er wheels with Shimano M525 hubs and Mavic A517 rims (135mm front, 100mm rear)
The frame got here a day late (thanks, USPS!) and I'm leaving with the family for vacation tomorrow. Tough decision: take my customized Quest 1.0, which is all up and turn key, or take the S2.0 and finish building it at the beach, risking the ingominity of having to rent a DF if I get hung and can't complete it?
The 135mm hub went into the dropouts easily enough. Insert one axle side, press the other with your thumb, and boop, it's in. I have no worries about being able to change a flat on the road, for instance. The only issue is the QR needs to be replaced with a tandem (140mm OLD) QR. Other than that, everything seems to line up okay. The calipers align fine using the business card method.
So these are $49USD hubs. Lots of spokes to resist the twisting FWD MBB imparts to the wheels.
So maybe mega-dollar 130mm disc hubs made from unobtainium aren't necessary.
I'll update again when the bike is finished and riding, if the WIFI at the beach house cooperates.
I am loving this bike with disc brakes. It's exactly what I would spec if I was building one. I'd be tempted to take it to the beach and finish it, but my family might have something to say about that.
Soooo, there is a chance that a 135mm Rohloff will work!?!
Those look like regular road handlebars and not the type that usually come with SIlvio 2.0 -- I'd be interested to hear how that works out with any possible leg strike as knees may waver to the side...
Since the Rohloff hub is offered with a QR option, I cautiously think it will work.
I'm researching it now.
I'm using a Quest 2.0 Dualdrive hub to simulate the size of a Rohloff hub.
The remaining questions are about the torque arm and shifter.
Being short, I need extra longitudinal knee space when everything else is otherwise correctly adjusted, so I made a handlebar shim and used my 26mm WTB bars.
The bars we supply with the bike work for almost everyone, but my body dimensions are outside the distribution we build bikes around.
I'll let you know how it works out.
I'll let you know how it works out.
I'll bet you go reaching for the standard bars and put the wtb's back on the shelf. It's just a feelin I have.
...and half my shop to the beach.
"The remaining questions are about the torque arm and shifter."
If the Rohloff ends up fitting, wouldn't the following work instead of having to use the big torque arm?
Monkey Bone and OEM2 Axle Plate:
The above is the set up on my current bike that has disc brakes since it doesn't have a Rohloff dropout like below.
Different ways to mount a Rohloff shifter to road drop bars:
Okay, so many ways to fit the shifter. But what interests me for Rohloff shifting is a two stage shifting system.
Bar end shifter, with custom stop dimples, PLUS an inline tweak, so that my bar end is shifting 1 to 9 or 6 to 14. Something like that. I have no idea if the shift distances are constant, which they would have to be.
Or maybe two bar end shifters, and I can shift up or down from either one. If one runs out of clicks, use the other.
Yes, I know it requires two cables. Concept first, make it viable second.
Very interesting ideas. Having had a Rohloff for 4 years now (actually have 4 between my bike/trike and my wife's) I know there is a lot of interest in the Rohloff crowd for a better shifter solution...not real certain why Rohloff doesn't tackle the road drop bar crowd but their business decision is obviously not to.
Regarding shift distances...every shift from 1 to 14 is very distinct and the same distance. The two cables are a simple push/pull set-up and are required to be the exact same length.
John, what a cool idea! You know, now that I have the SRAM dual drive on my Bike Fridays, I really have fallen in love with this shifting system. (Charles, I just received the second one yesterday and will be posting unpacking pictures soon!). It's so smooth and seamless. Then again, Jim Parker has the Di2 on his Vendetta and it sounds like the bomb!
Quiet, no interruptions.
Looks like the front needs a tandem QR. I stole the one of my Vision R82 before I left the house.
Otherwise everything looks like it fits and aligns fine with the 135mm hub.
Now to cable, chain and wrap things. Off to the LBS in the morning to see if he can remove this stuck 9sp cassette.
Thanks for sharing...
Wow...beautiful bike!!! I LOVE the look of it! Does it have the standard sized chainstays? Mine is stateside in Customs right now and I can't wait to get it.
I have a Rohloff wheel ready to go so maybe within the next week or two I can answer my own question. I think it was Nanda at Spin Cyclz though that brought up the point, either here or at BROL, that it might be the chain stays that are an issue making them wider, not so much the fork. Do you see any issue with this Doug on your build?
Does anyone else see what I mean? With the HF frame member melding into the seatup through the headrest, with a rider seated on this Silvio, the bike would almost disappear. It's as if the bike and its rider become one.
There is enough compliance in the carboyoke structure before everything is tightened up that the wider hub is happily accommodated. I see no distortion in the front structure when the QR is pulled up tight.
Looking at your DF Rohloff installation photos, the only thing I see is that the caliper mount (the bolt-on part, not the mount welded to the fork) might need to be relieved to accept the Rohloff bracket that tucks under. Otherwise, the caliper bracket will end up closer to the disc than can be accommodated. If you can't make this change on the bracket, let me know, I can probably knock it out on the mill pretty quick.
Doug - the disc hubs are intriguing, but what about those 29" wheels? This is the first I have heard anyone mention moving from a 700c wheel to a 29". I am assuming there are no clearance issues? Thank you for sharing the detail of your build. Dean
Is this the relief you are talking about:
These are available at Cyclemonkey.com.
That's what you need. I think if you get a shifter worked out you're probably in good shape.
29'r wheels are 700c. They usually just have a higher spoke count and 135mm hubs. These mounted the same tires I had on a pair of Aero 67's perfectly.
Doug - I guess a bit of a duh on my part. Thank you for the clarification.
Wow! Wow! Jaw dropping beautiful bike! I want! I want!
Just need a video of a rider on it, screaming away at 50 Km/h on some smooth winding tarmac!
Wow what a nice looking bike, thanks Doug for the pics It appears the seat angle is not quite as laid back as the Vendetta. Is that right?
Doug - I guess a bit of a duh on my part. Thank you for the clarification.
Wheel and rim sizes are hardly obvious and very easy to wrong.
French - 700c, 650b, 650c,
ISO - 27 1/4" = 630mm, 700c = 622mm, 650c = 571mm, 26" = 559mm, 24" = 520mm, 24" = 507mm, 20" = 451mm, 20" = 406mm, 16" = 349mm, 20" = 307mm.
Then there are Schwinn-specific 26" tires, and the old 26" road bike tires that I have forgotten the ISO equivalents for.
"29 inch" or "29'r" was a clever marketing term used to sell 700c rims to mountain bikers.
Tire sizes are all about duh for all of us, Dean.
There is a little room for expanding the dropout spacing on the fork, it you want everything to line up just so.
Modifying the fork is risky - at this point in production we aren't able to replace forks where mistakes are made in modifications. They're too expensive and we don't have enough of them.
If you want to open the fork dropouts, you can (I haven't, so take this as something of a theoretical discussion) face the inner dropout "bosses" that contact the stub axles (or locknuts, depending on the hub you're using). Temptation is to use a file, but the bosses rest in a "depression" in the dropout that a flat file would damage. To do this properly, you need a dropout facing tool. This is the only one I've found:
It's kinda expensive for a one-use tool, but it's cheap insurance if you're working on a part made of unobtainium.
This should give you a precise, parallel set of dropouts and prevent damage to the outer dropout flanges. Use Park Tool Cutting Oil to prevent galling, and work slowly, taking a light cut, then adjusting the tool. If the tool is "catching" or binding, back off and take a lighter cut.
You should be able to get at least 3mm overall increase without too much drama. Could be that you could get the 2.5mm per side that you want.
Good luck. Don't mess up...
Doug I already asked on Larry's post about this but do you see any need to flare the forks with a jig of some sort ever so slightly so that the forks are closer to the 135mm spacing BEFORE starting to cut with the facing tool?
I might be experimenting with some drive wheel changes shortly and the Rohloff intrigues me.
I am not enthusiastic about modifications to the dropouts of our bikes, or any bikes. So I can't endorse these plans. Maybe you are careful, but maybe someone else is not.
I can completely understand your concern and lack of endorsement for this project. Keeping that in mind will make me even that much more careful when I "clean up" the inside of the fork dropouts. I am going to take it slow and cautious and only remove the absolute minimum necessary to achieve a better fit.
For nearly 10 years, my only bike has been a Grasshopper. This is fitted with Rohloff and hydraulic disk brakes, a combination which I absolutely love. So I got a conversion kit just to test the MBB idea. Back, with regret, to the old fashioned gears and brakes. But I am telling myself this is just an experiment, not my serious bike.
My first dilemma is whether I like the MBB idea. Gradually evolving towards "yes", I think.
In that case, my second dilemma is: Silvio or Vendetta. Probably S.
In either S or V scenario, I would really miss the type of components I have on the Grasshopper.
So, assuming I get to the point, of owning a frame, do I want to start flaring forks and facing dropouts? Never done anything like this before.
By the way, I am perfectly happy with the Rohloff shifter on the Grasshopper.
How 'bout a pic of your Grasshopper? The Quest frame could probably take a Rohloff and hydraulic disc brakes. Perhaps you might find a used one or see if you could buy the frame only from Cruzbike?
If I had my way, with maybe rare exception, I would have nothing but Rohloff-equipped bikes in my garage. An exception might be if I ever moved up to a Vendetta. To me, a Vendetta is a pure, out-and-out speed bike and might not be the best platform for a Rohloff or any other type of IGH. That said, my understanding is that a Silvio is no slouch either for speed (hope to find out soon) but I think it could very easily assume a role as a fast, multi-capable bike that can be a commuter bike, touring bike, charity ride bike, etc. The ability to run an IGH and install fenders would make this an exceptionally versatile bike allowing people to do literally anything they want with the Silvio.
For the time being, the Silvio will be my "Vendetta" but if anytime in the future Cruzbike designs/offers a touring-type 135mm fork with fender clearance, etc. I hope to be at the front of the order line to get one.
BTW...I have no issue with the standard Rohloff shifter on my trike or my Ti-Rush but wanted to go a different route (http://www.co-motion.com/index.php/product/rohloff-shifter) if I was to put it on a bike with drop bars.
Aren't cyclecross wheels 130mm rather that 135? I'm sure they are available with disks.
Also, given the problems of carbon rims and caliper brakes, it seems likely that high end road wheels might be available with disks.
Available...yes! In huge numbers...no! I know that the following companies make them: White Industries (they make very nice hubs) & Velocity (very familiar with their rims but not their hubs). Chris King (probably my favorite hub) doesn't, DT Swiss doesn't, Hope doesn't, Shimano & SRAM...nope. Most hub manufacturers don't.
I talked to Chris KIng and they said they have nothing on the drawing board nor plan to. I'm not a cyclocross expert but know that very few of them run disc brakes. My Airborne Carpe Diem is a cyclocross bike (albeit an older 2002) and it doesn't have a disc brake tab on the back.
The famous Grasshopper. I have added heel-clips to the pedals.
Ages ago, on the internet (forgot the address) I read about this bloke who rode a recumbent with heel-clips. He also put the in-steps of his feet on the pedals. I made myself these clips. I cannot adjust them because they use two pieces of metal which I happened to have, which made them just the right size for me to use my in-steps. Everybody says you should ride with the balls of your feet, but I have really got to like riding this way. I do not know how to make more heel-clips just the right size for me.
Cool bike - headrest and all. You're going to like this forum.
The headrest! I forgot about that.
The bike came with a headrest. One morning at 3 AM I was riding home, completely off my face. I only noticed the headrest was gone the next day. I retraced my wheel-tracks, but never found it. The headrest in the photo is one I made.
It is a great bike to ride when one is completely off one's face. I wonder which Cruzbike frame is the best for this type of ride?
I like this forum.
Here is a long thread from BentRiderOnline concerning the use of the arch of the foot on the pedal:
That thread is all about cleats and shoes, which I have always been scared to try. I made heel-clips out of toe-clips. I just transferred them temporarily to my conversion-kit, which seems to reduce pedal-steer.
So now, after wondering how to make more heel-clips, I had a look online, and am about to buy Look cleats. Just the cleats. They are made of engineering thermoplastic, so I think I can saw or drill them and attach them to flat pedals, and then attach sawn-off toe-clips. Maybe.
Anyway, they are cheap, so what the hell.
I am surprised no company is making heel-clips for bent riders.
Hostel Shoppe sells heel slings which perform the same function as your heel clips, but maybe your clip idea is better. I have never used such a thing as I use clipless pedals, but I can see there being a market for what you have, especially trike owners.
Slings sounds good, especially with patches for sandals.
People on two wheels are worried about being unable to put their feet down in an emergency, which does not bother trike-riders, so they are happy with cleats and shoes.
The cleats would not fit. I mangled them quite badly and they would not fit. AndrewBaloga is right. I eagerly await heel-slings from Hostel Shoppe. In the meantime, I keep transferring Grasshopper's pedals to the conversion kit and back again.
That's it. Swallowed hard and went for it.
Apparently Mr Tolhurst can't bash Silvios out fast enough and I'm gonna have to wait. Anyway, thanks for the discount. That about pays for the shipping. Nice gesture.
I bought just the frame because I want hydro disks, Schmidt dynamo and, I hope, Rohloff. When the frame arrives, I have a cunning plan. My Grasshopper has Rohloff and disk brakes, so I am going to try to put that back wheel into the Silvio. It is twenty inch, but I can find out if the hub fits before I buy one.
It is twenty inch, but I can find out if the hub fits before I buy one.
I can tell you that it will fit with a slight spreading of the fork blades...I have a Rohloff on a 700c wheel and had little problem getting it in. I had a thread going earlier regarding facing the fork drop outs so that the spread would be even less but allowed myself to be talked out of doing that.
I may revisit the Rohloff again in the future...I absolutely love it. You CAN go fast with a Rohloff on a bike like the Silvio (I can fly on my Ti-Rush with the Rohloff) so it is far from "putting perfume on a pig" as some may suggest.
AndrewBaloga is definitely right. The heel slings are great.
On the conversion-kit, trying to simultaneously brake and change down is annoying. I always used to be annoyed by that. I think my Silvio will be a fragrant pig.
What is the weight increase of a disc wheel with more spokes to handle the braking load, and disc brake over the standard wheel and caliper road brakes.
Are the new 24 mm wide 700 C rims heavier than the same depth (30 mm) 19 mm wide rims?
Has anyone changed to 23 or 25 mm wide rims from the 19 mm rims and noticed better handling?
I got my disk carbon wheels from China via ebay, custom order, $430 shipped from seller carbonspeedcycle. You can choose any configuration, and for disk wheels they'll use disk appropriate spoke patterns. My 38mm rims (24/24 front/rear) with Novatek disk hubs weigh about 1450 g. Granted, I opted for tubular rims (the Conti Sprinter tubes add 300g).
This seller has staff who speak/write perfect English so communicating specialty orders is no problem.
If you want to build your own wheel: the hub you want is here, the ?Novatec D722SB (different number for front).
For disk brakes I'd recommend the TRP Spyre. Cheaper and lighter than Avid. I opted for their Hy/Rd hydraulic brake for the front but I'm told it may be overkill. The weight is 150g for Spyre and 200g Hy/Rd plus the rotors at about 90g each.
My main decision was to avoid issues with carbon rims on long descents. I could have gone for much lighter rim brakes (200g set).
... and they appear to offer a 130mm - spaced disc hub on a deep-rim aero wheel.
Good find. Let us know how they work for you. (Pictures?)
The carbon wheels arrived 14 days after placing the order (China to Denver, Colorado). The weight is as stated and they look very nice.
Those have the Novatek disk hubs for road bike wheels (130mm) so no need to squeeze.
They let you choose the color of the nipples, spokes and the hub. For the 38mm rim you'll need 30mm Presta valve extenders. Weight before skewers and disk rotor 1480g for front and rear. My cassette (11-34) is also from Taiwan, only 178g ($100 cheaper than the high end Shimano cassette which weighs 255g - and $100 more expensive than the regular boat anchors at 345g to 445g).
From what I've been told it pays to keep the rotating weight low (at the very least it pays the seller...)
The skewers are on the heavy side at 105g and I might get a light weight set later ($20-30 on ebay, titanium).
Now the only things missing are a second chain, the tires (Conti Sprinter Gatorskin tubulars), the front derailleur (the SRAM Force Yaw 2014 model is identical to the Red Yaw at half the price, available from Taiwan via ebay) -- and the frame set!!
Hopefully Cruzbike is still on track to ship first week of November. And hopefully they'll include stickers for the wheels to make bragging easier.