Sprinting

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Robert Stewart's picture
Robert Stewart
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A previous thread produced a very interesting discussion about riding position and technique on the Silvio:

http://www.cruzbike.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=231&st=0&sk=t&sd=a

I would like to focus here on the specific issue of maximum power delivery for sprinting. It seems to be fairly generally accepted that you can get an increase in power delivery by pulling your chest closer to the handlebars, but I don't think that is how to get maximum power delivery. In the final post of the thread linked to above, Flasharry said this:

Quote:
On grinding up one very steep section, I have actually found my behind raised out of the seat, so the only points of contact were between my shoulder blades, the pedals and the bars. This had the effect of raising the centre of gravity and giving a pivot point behind my shoulders, making the bike very light and easy to counter steer, as well as give a smoother (less wheel slippy) power delivery, from me pushing forwards on the pedals, gravity pushing down and me pulling back with the clipless pedals. But my fitness (or lack of) means I cannot maintain this for too long....yet.

I would like to suggest folks give this technique a try. I have tested it on steep hills and flat roads and in both cases it allows me to accelerate faster than I can using any other riding position. It is a difficult position to maintain though, so it's most useful for sprints imho. I woud like to hear other people's experiences with this method. Try It, You Might Like It. Smile

Cheers,
Rob

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Re: Sprinting

If you proceed with this kind of thinking, then imagien standing in the pedals and hold yourself up with your arms. Not vertical, but less.

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Re: Sprinting

I have done this same thing with similar results on my Rans VRex. It seems to be a natural position for putting out a lot of power(shoulders, hips and feet aligned). I have often wondered what it would be like to have a seat which you could switch to that position so you wouldn't have to hold yourself up during maximum output.

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Re: Sprinting
Robert Stewart wrote:
A previous thread produced a very interesting discussion about riding position and technique on the Silvio:

http://www.cruzbike.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=231&st=0&sk=t&sd=a

I would like to focus here on the specific issue of maximum power delivery for sprinting. It seems to be fairly generally accepted that you can get an increase in power delivery by pulling your chest closer to the handlebars, but I don't think that is how to get maximum power delivery. In the final post of the thread linked to above, Flasharry said this:

Quote:
On grinding up one very steep section, I have actually found my behind raised out of the seat, so the only points of contact were between my shoulder blades, the pedals and the bars. This had the effect of raising the centre of gravity and giving a pivot point behind my shoulders, making the bike very light and easy to counter steer, as well as give a smoother (less wheel slippy) power delivery, from me pushing forwards on the pedals, gravity pushing down and me pulling back with the clipless pedals. But my fitness (or lack of) means I cannot maintain this for too long....yet.

I would like to suggest folks give this technique a try. I have tested it on steep hills and flat roads and in both cases it allows me to accelerate faster than I can using any other riding position. It is a difficult position to maintain though, so it's most useful for sprints imho. I woud like to hear other people's experiences with this method. Try It, You Might Like It. Smile

Cheers,
Rob

I have used that technique in the winter for better traction up hills. I have also tested it for better speed up hills under normal road conditions it does work you are able to increase your speed. The other method by sitting on the seat and leaning forward and using your upper body is for me even faster.

Peder

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Re: Sprinting

Sprinting and Hill Climbing are different because of the air.

This method of leaning back introduces some fresh muscles and reduces aero drag. So it might be best for sprints.

Working the front of the bike and leaning forward slightly (depending on how reclined your seat is) seems to generate greater maximum power, but with more drag. I think the cross over is about 30 to 35 kph.

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Re: Sprinting

I had read this post back before I got my Silvio and had tried it early on but since forgotten the technique.
...until a couple weeks ago.

I had some recumbent-butt-pain going on and during a somewhat fast flat section (about 25mph/40kph) I lifted my hips for some relief.
I was amazed to find myself feeling a springing forward sensation - it seemed to smooth out my pedal stroke (or it felt like that) such that, as JT says, it introduced some new/different muscles and there was a bunch more pulling through the bottom of the pedal stroke. I was immediately going faster. It is hard to hold that position for more than a few seconds but I found nearly the same feeling just arching my lower back, which I can hold for quite a bit longer, minutes even.

I am pretty happy to have "discovered" this since I will be giving everything I have in a 200M flying start sprint at the Human Power Challenge in Portland OR on May 30th (10 mile TT on the 29th).
Running compact double SRAM Rival 50/34 with 165MM cranks which should also help with the crank turnover.

We'll see how it goes.

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Re: Sprinting

Was pressing hard in a similar fashion some days ago, with backside clear of the seat, and the (non-suspension) conversion hit a speedbump. Heart-in-mouth moment as the bike dances under me: I now make sure I'm well-seated for any bumps...

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Re: Sprinting

this is a technique that fast freddy markham has been recommending for years for hillclimbing/sprinting/quick bursts of power. i believe you can still find his discussions about this on the easy racer forums.

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Re: Sprinting

I did this once too...

Manalive wrote:
Was pressing hard in a similar fashion some days ago, with backside clear of the seat, and the (non-suspension) conversion hit a speedbump. Heart-in-mouth moment as the bike dances under me: I now make sure I'm well-seated for any bumps...

...even with my suspended Silvio the front wheel did a two-step to the right and then the left.

Never felt out of control - I like steering with my legs too.
Certainly lost some forward momentum skipping my wheel like that tho. Shock

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Re: Sprinting

I had to think about my sprinting technique. I guess I'm a butt-lifter, but not clear off the seat. I think it's more putting the full leg and hips into action spinning the pedals as opposed to fully lifting my butt off the seat. I do know that I am seriously working the bars AND throwing the bike side to side. This might be good cause for a video!

Mark

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Re: Sprinting

Hello Blief.z,

Here is good luck and safe racing to you this weekend.
Let us know how it goes.

blief.z wrote:
I had read this post back before I got my Silvio and had tried it early on but since forgotten the technique.

I am pretty happy to have "discovered" this since I will be giving everything I have in a 200M flying start sprint at the Human Power Challenge in Portland OR on May 30th (10 mile TT on the 29th).
Running compact double SRAM Rival 50/34 with 165MM cranks which should also help with the crank turnover.

We'll see how it goes.

Enjoy yourself. I did about a month ago here in Indiana. See #340 "Larry Reyman" -stock class.

http://www.recumbents.com/wisil/racing2010/indy2010_results.htm

There were no other high racers in my race--all low racers! But honestly, that would not have mattered, the field was small but loaded with super strong riders.

http://www.recumbents.com/wrra/records.asp

Good Luck, again. Larry

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Re: Sprinting

Interesting list...
Maria is on here twice - now just a matter of time before 'Cruzbike Vendetta' starts to fill the slots ??!! Wink

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Re: Sprinting

Thanks Larry, I will report back early next week.

Doc Reyman wrote:
Hello Blief.z,
Here is good luck and safe racing to you this weekend.
Let us know how it goes.

In the meantime here is some bike pr0n of my CBSV-086 AllBlackSilvio (except for the eggbeaters [sigh])

Some points:
* my computer is in the windshadow of the headset (took about 2 hours to work this all out.)
* JT will be proud of the level of...well...the levelness of the handlebars. The brifters will not push any *more* wind than they must. Wink
[attachment=1]Silvio_Brick.jpg[/attachment]
[attachment=0]Silvio_Brick_2.jpg[/attachment]

Silvio_Brick.jpg Silvio_Brick_2.jpg
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Re: Sprinting

Nice, neat job Lief Smile

Though you've forgotten to remove the valve cap off the rear tube to save weight. I see that you've already taken the front one off. Wink Smile

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Re: Sprinting

Perfect, I will do that.

Gromit wrote:
Nice, neat job blief.z Smile

Though you've forgotten to remove the valve cap off the rear tube to save weight. I see that you've already taken the front one off. Wink Smile

I'm also working on a technique whereby I exhale and remain exhaled for the duration of the 200M sprint so as not to have to drag along that extra 100g* of air.

* assuming I have a 6.0L lung capacity, I can exhale all of it, and air weighs 1lb / 13cuft...just an estimate.
:ugeek:

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Re: Sprinting

Hello Blief.z,
AllBlackSilvio does look good and the cables appear more carefully routed along the TFT than I have done. Good Job.

There are no mirrors in those 2 pics and before your race day this weekend, you should check for a mirror requirement. That existed in my HPV race, but it was a field of bikes on a circuit course for 20 laps. A TT event or a timed Flying 200M might not have the requirement since you would not be subject to being overtaken and passed.

Larry

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Re: Sprinting
Doc Reyman wrote:
There are no mirrors in those 2 pics and before your race day this weekend,
Larry

Thanks Larry, and Man! CruzBikers are observant. Wink
I have intentionally been running with a messenger mirror on my glasses in case the mirror requirement exists for my events.
I saw that it did, at least for some races, and I didn't want to take the chance.
I will bring a back-up in case for some reason my messenger mirror isn't sufficient.

This is my first real "race" so I haven't internalized things like that - I appreciate checking up on me.

at first I thought it wouldn't work for me but after a couple of weeks, I find it works fine. Slightly convex, subtends the same amount of my vision as my regular blackburn mirror - just not quite as much light gathering power (F-stop?)
I recommend it.

http://www.messengermirror.com/

And not that you have much choice (my profile name is blief.z after all), but I prefer to be on a "normal name" basis with you all. Smile

Lief

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Re: Sprinting

Lief,

I've not seen that mirror before. I don't care for the bike mounted mirrors, but personally favor the Take A Look mirrors.
They're a little more expensive ($15-$16 US), but they last forever.

Mark

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Re: Sprinting

At one time I was using both handlebar mirror and a Take A Look and found the Take A Look worked much better so thats all I use now. Jack.

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Re: Sprinting

Getting back on topic:

I analyzed my sprinting technique a litte closer this weekend. I'm definitely a "pull forwarder" as opposed to a "lean back and lift your butter". Everything goes into the legs in a full spin, working the bar and throwing the bike side to side. I can actually feel the seat back brushing against my back as it swings side to side.

Mark

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Re: Sprinting

Staying on topic of SPRINTING, I tried 2 techniques tonight.

The group ride was 30 miles and the front pack tends to average around 24mph. I led out to be a rabbit for them to chase and holding 21-22mph, they needed 6-8 miles to catch me, so I had quite a time trial leading up to the sprint technique test. I did this test after an hour into the ride and about 22 miles complete, so I was far from fresh.

It seems that a rider has their choice with a sprint effort, either pull up into the handlebars or push away and wedge against the seatback for power.

I tried both and the sprint speed when I pulled forward got into the 28+mph range and I could feel I was pulling back on the pedals a lot to get my power. "Think of pedaling full circles." I have ridden 15+ years using fixed gear bikes so spinning like this is natural for me and I was maintaining that speed for several hundred yards-- maybe over a quarter of a mile.
Later after resting, I repeated the sprint effort (much to the disgust of the 2 DF riders who were still with me), but pushed into the handlebars and tried to unweight the seatpan by lifting my hips. This effort engaged the anterior thigh muscles like hill climbing (or lunge exercises) and caused rapid exhaustion, but the speed went to 31+ mph.

Therefore those riders who are strong at hill climbs out-of-the-saddle, may get the better sprint results by pushing into the bar and lifting the hips. Whereas, the spinners that climb hills by staying in the saddle longer may find the better results with the pull up technique.

Of course, this has only been a one time test and I still have less than 500 miles on SILVIO.

Good riding to everyone.

Larry

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Re: Sprinting

I hadn't ever done a "long-distance" sprint like the one I did at the Human Powered Challenge before.
I fully expected to be butt-out-of-the-seatpan, spinning circles - and there was a little bit of that at the very start, before I even entered the traps, but I surprised myself by going with this locked arms thing that Larry describes. I have always been, in my past life, a pretty good climber on my DF MTB so maybe that is where this comes from?

I hadn't ever done that before that I could remember but I held it for the better part of the last 150 meters and after my first cold run I did a second run at 13.66 seconds into a slight headwind/crosswind (maybe 3-4 mph?).
That is good for an average of 32.75mph / 52.71kph.

I was happy with that - after my second run I don't think I could have improved on it - my legs were kinda torched.

In retrospect - I think I could have shaved a couple more tenths off my time if I would have started the gas a little earlier (I probably started full gas 50M before the start?), maybe 30-50M earlier?
I say that for two reasons:
1) I was tired at the end of the run but I wasn't totally spent
2) I think I was still noticing significant acceleration for at least the first 50M of the traps, maybe more.

My "plan" was to be tired at the end and only be able to "just maintain" or a little less and slowly die at the end rather than still be full gas at the end.
There's always next year.

As for the 10 Mile TT (9.75 miles actually):
I ran a time of (memory here - they still haven't posted the official results) 23:33:00 for an average speed of 24.84 mph (39.98kph).
I was exceedingly happy with this average speed as my goal was 23mph.
Again, the conditions were a little wind (between 3-5mph), a little wet from the previous days rain but overall pretty ideal.
The course is a pretty flat (nearly) 2 mile loop with nothing to slow down a bike.

I was only passed by a couple of seasoned-ish racers on Carbent Ravens (?) - I know they were Carbents just don't know the model, with solid rear wheels and aero, deep-v front wheels. I was totally fine with that - I ran a good race for a first timer.
In retrospect, I could have been a little lighter but I would need an experienced coach to tell me what I could do better (tactically or otherwise). I don't have a heart monitor but I feel like I kept my effort on the line between aerobic and anaerobic the whole time except for the last 400M or so.

It was a ton of fun - when there are pictures posted I will provide the links.
Thanks for all the advice on this forum - I rode with you all on my shoulder - actually behind the seatpan, in the windshadow. Smile

Lief

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Re: Sprinting

lief,
http://www.ohpv.org/HPC/page6/page15/page15.html

i was on the ohpv site looking for results and i think i found you. picture 15. your computer placement gives you away. nice race report!

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Re: Sprinting

race results http://www.ohpv.org/HPC/page10/page11/page11.html

very respectable lief. i think those carbents you saw are going to be in the race across america.

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Re: Sprinting

Excellent showing, Lief!
For a rookie on a touring bike going up against a bunch of seasoned riders on racing bikes, you did amazingly well.
I wish they had one of these events somewhere close to where I live. Looks like fun.

Been riding regularly getting tuned for a week of hill climbing through the Blue Ridge on "Bike Virginia". In keeping with the intent of this thread, I am definitely a "pull-in lean forward" sprinter. Also, when coming to a stop at an intersection, I lean forward and sit as tall as possible anyway to maximum seeing and being seen. This puts me in a natural position to "sprint" out of the intersection when its clear.

I have been experimenting with the arms-straight-butt-out-of-the-seat sprinting technique. It seems to work well, especially when trying to get above 25 mph, but I fatigue pretty quickly doing it. I used it the other day and one of the road bikers I passed noted that I went through a school zone at over 30 mph. Oops!

Jim

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OHPV 2011

In the Oregon Human Powered Vehicles  - Human Powered Challenge event this past May (2011) I bested my aforementioned 200M flying sprint speed of 32.75mph / 52.71kph with a respectable 13.06 seconds good for 34.26mph / 55.136kph.

This is the body of an email I communicated to my family shortly after the event - it might be useful to other riders as well participating in sprint events.

I wanted to be at or near my top speed right at the beginning of the chute. My thoughts being that speed difference over a short distance is better slowing down than having to actually speed up more during that 200M. Rather be tired and slowing down than tired and trying to increase speed.

Breaking down my actual attack (right or wrong) in some detail goes like this.

  • First 1/2 of the run-up was easy going up to about 17-18 mph - big long over-exaggerated deep breaths - mild hyperventilating.
  • Next 1/4 of the run up - shifted into my top chain-ring and began pushing harder, fought down the urge to start sprinting REALLY hard right then by switching position down (putting my tailbone on the front of the seat) and began using as much pull muscles as I could, to rest my push muscles a bit - cresting the 21-23 mph mark - I increased to very fast, accelerated deep breaths trying to over-oxygenate.
  • At -225M or -250M mark (from the start) - I switched back to full push at probably 80% max - probably about cadence of 90 - maybe another down-shift on the cassette? can't recall.
  • At -75M to -100M or so I may have shifted down one cog in the back again and began 100% effort - perhaps a little early - not enough spinning too much "pushing" - I was coming into about 30mph at this point
  • Between -75 and -25 I recall a bit of an effort and speed plateau at perhaps 32mph followed very shortly by a second wind, maybe I found my highest-power-output-cadence of something like 100+ rpm and recall seeing my speedometer passing 34...or maybe just seeing the start line I got an adrenaline boost? maybe both but...
  • ...this gave me a shot of serious moxy considering the possibility that I could crest 35mph and I don't remember much else after that except perhaps a shift in position, serious arm-pulls (much less stiff arm this year) and maybe even 110+ RPM over the start line and through to about +100M.
  • My legs were burning pretty good at about +100M through the gates but it was just easier to hold the speed than to accelerate at that point.
  • I also recall laying my head back out of the wind at the end to try and decrease wind resistance - probably did the last 50M at something like 70% maximum power output - cause I was out of gas.
  • In retrospect - I don't think my lungs were out of gas until about +100 or +150M - my legs were cooked at roughly the same time - that's why I started to lay back and just "maintain" pedal motion - maintaining the burn but without nearly as much power output.

The biggest things I think were, saving my push muscles by pulling for about 100M before the final push, overoxygenating, and being at full speed entering the traps and trying not to decelerate all the way through.

I don't suppose that there's any chance Cruzbike will come to Portland OR next Memorial Day and show that track some Vendetta?

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Two shorts

1. Ankle pedaling.  Produces a burst of power that lasts as long as you're conditioned to maintain it.  Absurdly rapid acceleration.

2. Went with a group of 9 roadies for a 100 mile invitational last weekend.  I took off and lost sight of them in my mirrors.  I also failed to note the sign on the pavement telling me to NOT turn left, but to go straight.  Three miles later I got suspicious that I didn't see anyone ahead or behind me, so I rode back to the turnoff and took the proper time to read the pavement marking.

I caught the main pack I came with about 7 miles later.  While chatting I learned that they had all decided to abandon the 100 mile route and only do the 65 mile route.  I bolted ahead, thinking I had to finish 100 miles by the time they finished 65 miles.  About 5 minutes later I concluded that I could get a flat or a mechanical and hold up the group for an hour or more if I went ahead and did the 100 miles. 

So, instead, I decided to do the remaining 50 miles at `time trial' pace.  I stopped once for a nature break but otherwise passed up water and food, carrying enough for 50 miles. 

I arrived at the endpoint only to note that not one soul from all the entrants for the invitational was there.  The parking lot was large so I just decided to roll around and dry off from the sweaty pace I had kept. 

A half hour passed and no one came in.  Then an hour passed.  I began to wonder if I had heard correctly.  I even began to think that they told me a lie about doing only 65 miles, hoping that they could ditch me.  (Paranoia is not a South American nation !)

Finally, after one hour and forty minutes a few of the group rolled in.  Then the rest.

I made no comment about how long I had been waiting. 

But several of the group wanted to `get on' that `sit down' bike to see how it could go so fast. 

- Dan

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Pain and suffering should not be the `goal' of ultracycling. Rather, the ability to learn from experience so that adversity can be managed with emotional resilience, good training and better preparation. The recumbent platform permits achievement of these goals.

See Jim Parker's article: THE RECUMBENT PERSPECTIVE, in UMCA Magazine, Nov 2012. (http://www.ultracycling.com/sections/magazine/issues/2012_V21_4.pdf)

------------------------------

http://psychling1.blogspot.com/

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OHPV HPC 2012 - Personal Best

Well - I gave it another good go at the 200M flying sprint.
Only real differences between 2011 and2012.
* taped up rear wheel - poor man's version of a wheel disc: I used clear cellophane tape to the rims of my Mavic Open Pro.
* a little bit heavier overall (185 lbs vs about 177lbs last year)
* velocity deep V front wheel (vs Kyserium something-or-other)
* one year older

Some similarities
* same tires/tubes (Ultremo RS and regular tubes)
* same/similar level of fitness - if anything less fit but close enough to not call the difference
* same basic approach: over-oxygenated, went slow in the long lead-up, pulled as long as I could up to about 22-25mph and punched it hard at about 70Yards out.

Entered the gates at something over 36mph/60kph
Left the gates at just over 35mph/56kph

Time = 12.50 sec
AVG Speed = 35.79mph / 57.60kph

Wondering now...what I could do with:
* more aero (i.e., Vendetta)
* better fitness / training
* lighter weight (personal)
* and probably other tweaks I haven't though of

Side Notes:
I met and spoke with Dan Catlett over the weekend (Cruzbike dealer in So California) - that was fun talking Cruzbike-shop!
If anyone else wants to come to Portland next year - a couple of us would like to organize a team time trial event to challenge the other Human Power Challenge events around the country.
I also met and spoke with Alan (lastname?) who used to own a Silvio and is borrowing a Vendetta from Nanda next week. #jealous! It was fun talking and racing Alan!
I would love to race/ride with another Cruzbike. Smile

Lief

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Great Job!

Yes, I met Lief on Sunday and saw his run, Awsome!!laugh

It was good to see all the recumbent riders, out having a good time!  I wish I had known about it in advance and had brought my bikessad  I plan on being there next year with (??) who knows what fine Cruzbike Steed I will be racing but it will be great!

Dan Caton

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Ack!

Apparently too much riding hard like that addles my brain!
My apologies for bolluxing your last name Dan.

I expect to be in Portland again next year - such a good time spent with like-minded folks.
Lief 

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Now on a new-to-me Vendetta

So, this thread is old - but it is still relevant, at least to me, because I love sprinting.

I got the chance to do more of it at this year's Human Powered Challenge at Portland (I missed 2013).
Unfortunately for me - the event was hand-timed this year.
Not to detract from people's abilities at starting/stopping a stopwatch - they were very consistent - it's just not the same as electronic timing.

How did I do?
The same but better...here's what I mean.

200M flying start sprint (my favorite event)
I ran my same 'ol Silvio 1.0 setup - Ultremo ZX Tires, Butyl tubes, 110+PSI, Compact Crank 165MM 50/34 - and I think (results aren't posted online anywhere) I got the same 35.6-35.7MPH average.
I only get one real run at it because I cook myself with the effort.

FFWD to 45 minutes later and I'm watching racers go by and feeling kinda plucky so I ask Robert Haller if I could, ya know, just try out his Vendetta - I noticed that we run the same Crank Bro's pedals.

We're close enough in height that it's not a huge stretch.
He agrees - and claims ownership to my time should I beat his. Wink Fair enough.

Getting past just how awesome it was to ride on a Vendetta - (an entirely different story)

I take Rob's bike up to the start line and get in on the tail end of the 200M runs. My legs felt good-enough.
And I gave it my all - but I still think I pooped out a little early.

While most observers agreed (including myself) that I was kinda wobbly: the balance of the Vendetta is different, the handlebars were further back than I was accustomed to, Rob's x-seam is probably 1" longer than mine - I beat my Silvio 1.0 time - If memory serves I was at 36.2+mph.
OHHHHHHH - that was sweet.

So that day I learned first-hand that a Vendetta IS MOST DEFINITELY faster in a dead sprint than a Silvio 1.0 (I held a position, which didn't hold water for very long, that my closed position on the Silvio gave me a better chance at core-power transfer than the laid back position of the Vendetta).

The aero-profile and the stiffness (oh my lord the STIFFNESS!) of the Vendetta II more than makes up for any perception of "core-power transfer" in the more closed position of the Silvio 1.0.

FFWD to a couple of weeks ago.

Now on my new-to-me Vendetta.
I absolutely crushed!! my 1.0mi sprint personal best on Strava.
A couple years back I had an all-out (nearly puked) effort on my Silvio with a tailwind that produced a 2:09.
Now, a very hard, had to slow down a bit for two cars that I had to pass - and I get a 2:00 flat out! That's crazy.
http://www.strava.com/segments/981120?

and last, but not least, FFWD to last weekend.
Two things proved out for me on this ride with relation to my sprinting goals:
1) on a very slight uphill (and into a small headwind) segment I crested 37MPH in an 800-1000W effort.
and
2) I proved that I CAN pedal this gearing at 42+mph (i.e., I didn't spin-out) : a 54t oval chainring with 170MM cranks.

The latter (#2) was proven on the run-out after a .7mile -7% grade downhill run with Tim Turner (on his Bachetta CA2) where we both eclipsed 51MPH. http://www.strava.com/activities/167721048

For what it's worth - the Vendetta was rock-solid down that hill. I didn't feel any real wobble or anything (other than the wobble in my nerves a time or two)

In the next coupla weeks I'm gonna go out to the flattest spot I can find and see if I can manage to meet or exceed 40mph on the flat.
If I can do that - well let's just get that far first shall we?

In Summary and no matter what I can do on her - YES the Vendetta can, most definitely, sprint.

 

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Rose City Recum...
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Lief, Awesome! My experience

Lief,

Awesome! My experience mirrors yours. I am not near as powerful however, but the V wants to get up and move, yet that said it retains its slow speed handling qualities. On a looooong extended climb where you have to crawl down to 4-5 MPH the V will just keep going and feel very steady. 

It is definitely a bike that will make you a better rider no matter what your current ability may be. On any given terrain I am several MPH faster on any Cruzbike than I am on any other two wheeler I have been on for the same route. I have bested my local ride times on my former high racers on the V and I was in better physical condition then and younger haha. 

I can cruise easily along the flats at 25mph and carry so much momentum on the rollers it almost brings a tear to the eye.  If someone were to actually have the serious time to follow a training regimen on a V and put the serious miles and sweat equity in - be ready to leave all others in your wake very quickly.

Robert

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Agreed.

http://cruzbike.com/sites/all/modules/ckeditor/ckeditor/plugins/magiclin...) center no-repeat #ff0000; border-radius:2px; color:#fff; cursor:pointer; display:block; font-size:0px; height:17px; line-height:0px; margin:0px; padding:0px; position:absolute; right:17px; top:-8px; width:17px; z-index:9999" title="Insert paragraph here">↵Robert, I conveniently ignored the slow speed stuff but that's right - slow speed stuff is loads easier.
Input 180W up my normal hill on the Vendetta puts me at 7-8mph - very stiff and responsive.
Silvio 1.0, 180W is 5-6mph - and feels sorta sluggish by comparison - maybe the extra flex in the boom?
 

 

If someone were to actually have the serious time to follow a training regimen on a V and put the serious miles and sweat equity in - be ready to leave all others in your wake very quickly.

A.K.A. - RAAM 2013.cool

Tim Turner (race leader at PIR this year) had this to say on BROL:

?I don't know much about the Silvio 2.
But the Vendetta is a massive step up from the Silvio 1.

Let me lay it out like this...
I dropped my buddy Lief twice in the 1 hour race in Portland a few weeks ago. He was riding the Silvio 1. I was holding upper Z2 lower Z3 (about 210 watts).
He's now riding Maria's Vendetta. I went down and rode with him on Saturday morning and MANY times, he was holding my wheel for much longer stretches while I was doing solid Z3/4 work (about 220-250 watts).
The difference is astounding.
The Vendetta is a real bike.

Just for grins, after the 1 hour race, I went out on the course with my DF and did some miles with Maria (on her Vendetta). We came down the front stretch and she elevated the pace up over 27mph. I was doing 650 watts and she rode me off her wheel.
Then I made Lief do the same thing with his Silvio (me on my DF). We came down the front stretch and I held his wheel up to about 29 mph, then I sprinted around him up to 33mph and dropped him.
I simply could not find any draft at all behind Maria. (she's little. tiny. itsy bitsy). I'm sure there's more draft behind Lief on the same bike, but I'm fairly certain its AT LEAST as aero as my CA2. (it is heavier, though Smile ).

IMO, if you want a real bike, get a Vendetta. I've always been fairly critical of Cruzbike, but the Vendetta is the real deal.

That last line is pretty telling - from a guy who just loves biking and a non-Cruzbiker.