Speculating on bikes costs

[Luis Rives]

Its always about the money. The S40 frame is substantially less expensive to produce than the old S30 yet is being sold for the same money. Guess where the difference in cost is going? As for the seat angle, there is a point about the S30 crowding into V20 territory, though they are still very different bikes. Neither bike has adjustable seat angles so that one is forced to choose between one and the other. If the seat angle were adjustable one could have an all purpose bike, both for touring and all out racing. Its a marketing decision and again as always its about the money.

 

[Gary123]

Then why did v20 always cost more (no front or rear suspension.

 

[Luis Rives]

As the top of the line model, especially when its billed as the fastest road bike in the world, the V20 would have to cost more regardless of its cost to manufacture. For marketing reasons, it would not make sense to price the best of the best below lower performing models.

 

[1happyreader]

Luis Rives,, Gary123,,
Just how many cruzbikes frames do you think are made at a time, and how does that influence production costs ??
I think it's low enough to be considered a custom run.

 

[Luis Rives]

Happy,
You are correct. All recumbents have always been low volume because few people ride them. Lower volume still are Cruzbikes because many people cannot get past the front drive system. Lower still are the S40 and V20 because those are the most expensive models. On the other hand, I am sure that the Far East manufacturers of the Cruzbike already have the jigs and fixtures set up for production which is were most of the cost is. The S40 and V20 have fewer pieces to weld and fewer welds as compared with a DF, and the welds themselves are not say on par with the old Klein frames. They are just welded. The front triangle of the all the Cruzbikes is a complicated assembly with many precision parts so no doubt that this more than makes up for the ease of fabricating the rear frame. Don't get me wrong. I like Cruzbikes, ride a Softrider V2 and will be upgrading to an S40 for next season. Just wish they were not as expensive as they are even in the frame only kit.

 

[dtseng]

" If the seat angle were adjustable one could have an all purpose bike"
Someone already did that to Silvio and V20. It's a fairly simple mod.
Since the Parker family took over the company, they have put in a great deal of effort to promote FWD/MBB. This is a big investment from business point of view.
Jim Parker is a physician. I don't think he would need much more money to live, had he not been a cycling enthusiast himself.
Owing to wide range of adjustability, cruzbikes are one-size-fit-all. This is a big advantage over traditional DF bikes.
Although I have not yet owned any cruzbikes, I know the pro and con of the current four models . I've been playing with auto CAD on computer; it's really fun to vary
various design parameters. I don't have much fun with aluminum alloys for two reasons: 1. the weld is bulky and ugly; 2. UTS is almost the same as yield strength, this means the tubings have to be big
and thick resulting in heavier frame.

 

[Luis Rives]

Gary,
Pay to play? Yeah, its called a monopoly. Wonder what will happen once the trademark period runs out.

 

[ratz]

To date Cruzbike hasn't shared their manufacturing costs. Here are some things we do know before the speculation gets off course

1) The V20 has always been the lowest volume selling bike and that's the reason for the price. It's been refined each interaction and that still takes engineering.
2) The Silvio 2.1 and S30 was the most expensive frame they produced and for a long time it was sold cheaper than the v20; because of perceived value, then for a while it was more expensive. Not a profitable bike but it moved opinion more than any previous one..
3) The S40 was designed in response the the feedback about the loss of the Silvio 1.x line. It, unlike the S30 should help the bottom line; and is a really viable Gravel bike.
4) The S40 has more welds and manual grommets than the previous bikes; aka more finishing steps, much of the s30 and Silvio 2.1 was just boxing up stock twain parts and small parts stamped in volume.
5) The Q-series, Softrider and now the T50 are the bikes that sell the most.

So yep those of us who ride the V20's and S40's are going to pay the freight to get those bikes to our doors.
Even decked out I'm still $4k cheaper than what a slower DF would cost me based on what would attrack my desire to own.

There's a a lot of cool stuff being looked at for the future, so revenue from the bikes is going into creating things people are asking for. I can put money down on a bet that the stuff coming in the future (not next week, but in the future) will continue to make the faithful happy. If I was permitted to say what's coming I would, I'm not. But those that have been around a while know I here the good rumors. Let's say that I'm more excited about what could perhaps be here in the next 36-48 months than I have been in about 3 years.

Luis I know you are a fan and owner, just wanted to keep thing thread in the facts before it gets into debates of profitability; Nobody's gotten rich on these bikes; they certainly hope to; that's the point of business; but that's not the current state of affairs. Currently doing well enough to not stop, check that box off, and on to the next one.

 

[Gary123]

I think the bikes are priced pretty high but I was ready to buy Bacchetta aero carbon which is priced about the same. Was on a Bacchetta Strada and had the speed to ride with df buds everywhere except long hills even if grade wasn't so steep. I bought one of Marias' old bikes a V2 and met Jim and Maria and test rode the bike. Have no regrets about buying this bike even think it's by far the most I've ever paid for a bike of any kind. I am now able a to make the strongest rider in our group work really hard to stay with me even on hills. When we're both on df's there no way I can stay with him on a hilly route. I would rather have gotten the bike for half what I paid but I'm satisfied because it does exactly what I bought it for. I've bought other recumbents for 20 to 30 percent of original price and they were like new. There is a reason for this as I've never seen a vendetta for $1000 and if I did I'm sure someone would beat me to it. Maybe a monopoly but it's hard to argue with success.

 

[Gary123]

On a somewhat related note I was driving this morning and saw a recumbent on the road along with a couple of dfs. As I got closer I saw that it was a yellow vendetta pulling in to a parking lot so of course I had to pull in to investigate. I came along side and spoke and the rider turned out to Maria Parker on a ride in the Charlotte NC area to support disabled vets. Priceless.

 

[ratz]

I'm satisfied because it does exactly what I bought it for

I think most of us wear that t-shirt

 

[1happyreader]

3) The S40 was designed in response the the feedback about the loss of the Silvio 1.x line. It, unlike the S30 should help the bottom line; and is a really viable Gravel bike.

Cruzbike has fulfilled an amazing amount of the items that came up on Jim Parkers wish list post.
cruzbike fitted: ( and sold @cruzbike)
bags
racks
light mounts,ect
wider tire clearance
higher seat angle ( missing 45deg )
a touring model cruzbike
a lower priced entry level cruzbike
I am not sure if there were more,,, you can check the old threads.

 

[Gary123]

Please educate me as to why you need a mbb on a trainer when it locked in position. Thinking of getting a kicker and need to know if another recumbent would work as well.

 

[RojoRacing]

Please educate me as to why you need a mbb on a trainer when it locked in position. Thinking of getting a kicker and need to know if another recumbent would work as well.

You don't need an mbb on a trainer and in fact a mbb bike on a trainer adds the complication of ensuring the front wheel remains strait to avoid messing with your knee alignment. Keeping the bike strait is not a hard thing to do but it's fair to note it's something you must be aware of. If you want a kickr @ratz is selling one right now for an insane price and posted a add in the marketplace thread. I like my Vendetta on the trainer much more then my DF bike because on the vendetta I can sprint to my hearts content and not worry about breaking my carbon seat stays like on the Trek. The only thing a mbb bent would have over a rwd is the loss of watts through the drive train on the rwd is greater then on a mbb, but this only matters for someone who wants to focus on zwift racing where every watt to the trainer matters.

 

[Gary123]

Thanks for the feedback. I have a Bacchetta Strada that I'm very comfortable on and my ba a good mount on a trainer.

 

[Vulcanelli]

"Someone already did that to Silvio and V20. It's a fairly simple mod."

I am curious about this. In my CAD program I tried changing the seat angle of a V20 to 30 degrees and did not find it very simple at all. The challenge I found was where to establish the pivot point for changing the seat angle. I felt the hip axis of the femur bone would be a logical point of rotation if one looks at the leg as a crank arm of an engine. However while rotating about this point raises the back 10 degrees it simultaneously rotates the forward portion of the seat down into the frame. So now either the frame must be modified or the seat modified with a sharper leg angle. Maybe I missed something but this seems like beaucoup work.

 

[Gary123]

I used an aftermarket seat and had to trim a little out of middle on the front edge to keep it off the frame. Wasn't too difficult but because it's a V2 my handlebar adjustment is limited and if I raised the seat too much my arms are too bent so I hit the happy medium of about 25 degrees ad kicks up to 35-40 at the shoulder.

 

[LMT]

Its always about the money. The S40 frame is substantially less expensive to produce than the old S30 yet is being sold for the same money. Guess where the difference in cost is going? As for the seat angle, there is a point about the S30 crowding into V20 territory, though they are still very different bikes. Neither bike has adjustable seat angles so that one is forced to choose between one and the other. If the seat angle were adjustable one could have an all purpose bike, both for touring and all out racing. Its a marketing decision and again as always its about the money.

Really? Can you quantify this?

I own a V20 and S40, the way I look at it is that it is a custom build and the fun, speed and comfort that I get from the bikes is worth it.

 

[Braulio]

Gary,
Pay to play? Yeah, its called a monopoly. Wonder what will happen once the trademark period runs out.

When is the patent set to expire?

 

[ed72]

A custom upright frame and fork alone almost me $4K.

There is a lot of specialized welding of 7075 on these bents and a lot of other special, low volume parts.

When the patient expires, I doubt anyone else will be rushing in.